SETI? We may have to SETL for less.

[centsworth_II]

It would be nice to zip about the galaxy at warp speeds or, better yet, jump through worm holes from place to place, anywhere in the universe. But alas, such feats are only possible in the realm of science fiction. Likewise, meeting or even communicating with extraterrestrial intelligent life is looking less likely to occur in our lifetimes as SETI projects have not returned a single positive result.<br /><br />On the other hand, SETL, the search for extraterrestrial life, no matter how simple, is ripe for success. Bio molecules and precursors are being found everywhere we look, from interstellar nebulae to comets and meteors. Life on earth is being found in places once thought impossible, using means of survival once unimaginable. I have great hope for life being found in my lifetime. If not on Mars, then on Jupiter or Saturn or one of their moons. And when found, I would not be surprised if it were under circumstances unimaginable to us right now.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mooware]

I assume the L in SETL, is Life? <br />

 

[a_lost_packet_]

The discovery of one species of life which can be proven to have evolved entirely seperate from life on Earth would, almost, completely justify the SETI Project. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[mooware]

I think too that we haven't been looking a long time. It could be that any intelligent species near us has not yet reached our technological level. In which case, depending upon how far behind they are, or how far they are physically from us. it could indeed be a long time. <br /><br />However, we might detect that life is on another planet via terrestrial planet finder, by analyzing the atmosphere of a target planet. Prolly couldn't tell how far along they are unless they are polluting..<br /><br />

 

[centsworth_II]

<i>"The discovery of one species of life which can be proven to have evolved entirely seperate from life on Earth would, almost, completely justify the SETI Project."</i> -- a_lost_packet_<br /><br />I suspect that if extraterrestrial life is found in my lifetime it will be found in this solar system, be microscopic, and definately NOT be intelligent. How could this be the result of SETI which looks for INTELLIGENT life OUTSIDE of this solar system? <br /><br />In your statement, you seem to equate finding life with finding intelligent life. I think that SETI is a worthwhile pursuit, but totally separate from the search for life in our solar system. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<i>"...we might detect that life is on another planet via terrestrial planet finder, by analyzing the atmosphere..."</i> -- mooware<br /><br />This is an exciting possibility that I look forward to. But just like a_lost_packet_, you seem to be fixated on SETI to the point of equating life with intelligent life. When I think of detecting life through atmospheric analysis, I think of detecting changes wrought by a vibrant biosphere of microbes. You think of seeing the pollution of intelligent beings. <br /><br />I don't say you're wrong to hope for such a thing, and I think that research in that direction is good. I only wish that all search for life was not assumed to fall under the heading of SETI, as it often is. My prediction is that SETL will see success before SETI does. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[thechemist]

I would be more than happy to have a SETL success in my lifetime.<br />It seems that a Mars or Europa finding of past/present life is likely.<br />Of course, a SETI success would also be a SETL at the same time, but I find this possibility much less likely to happen soon, if ever.<br />We must give full support to both SETI and SETL. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

Ahhhh... someone who 'gets it.'<br /><br />I wish more people could get excited about the possibility -- and the <i>possibilities</i> -- of finding even a microbe of extraterrestrial origin. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rocketbodypart]

That is all we need to change the face of our world. One Microbe. <br /><br />I too will be a very happy camper when we do find current new life, or past life. It is all the same to me. We are not alone.

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">centsworth_II - In your statement, you seem to equate finding life with finding intelligent life. I think that SETI is a worthwhile pursuit, but totally separate from the search for life in our solar system. </font><br /><br />I think you are misunderstanding my point. If independently evolved life is found, then it will prove that life can evolve independently of life on Earth. So far, we have no evidence of this, just supposition. However, once such life is found, it is almost certain that somewhere such life may have evolved intelligence. Thus,: <font color="yellow">"... almost, completely justify the SETI Project."</font><br /><br />Surely, the proven knowledge of two, seperate and independently evolved groups of species would have an extreme impact on the suppositions concerning the development of extraterrestrial intelligences. I never meant to imply that SETI was focused on non-intelligent, extraterrestrial life forms within our system. But, two seperate sets of life within one system would have to raise their eyebrows a bit don't you think? I would assume they are interested in such possibilities. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[bobvanx]

We may have already discovered ETL, on Mars, but we just don't recognize it yet.<br /><br />MI images of the soil moving.

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Exactly. Quite frankly, anything that could thrive on the surface of Mars is .. well... kinda scary. Any life on Mars would have to be underneath a few meters of insulating topsoil at the minimum. imo <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<i>'If independently evolved life is found, then it will prove that life can evolve independently of life on Earth.... Somewhere such life may have evolved intelligence. Thus,: '... almost, completely justify the SETI Project.' "</i> -- a_lost_packet_<br /><br />OK, I think I've got it: Finding independently evolved extraterrestrial life in our solar system would greatly up the supposed odds of finding life throughout the universe. This in turn ups the odds on finding advanced forms of life, including intelligent life, and so makes it more worthwile to look for it. <br /><br />Imagine what finding independently formed extraterrestrial life in <i>two or three</i> locations in the solar system would do for the calculation!<br /><br />Frankly I don't need any convincing that life is common in the universe. I think that biochemistry is a natural extension of the prebiotic chemistry aleady seen throughout the solar system and the galaxy. The only questions I have are:<br /><br />1. How often is the jump from prebiotic to biotic chemistry made?<br />2. How often does life advance past the microbic stage.<br />3. How often does life evolve to very advanced stages, up to intelligence.<br />4. Did life arise in our solar system elsewhere than on Earth? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bobvanx]

Those are good questions, cents, and thankfully you and I have lived to see Astrobiology become a real discipline!

 

[bobvanx]

Scary, thrilling, it's all adrenaline.<br /><br />So what do you think my picture shows, if not the action of life on the surface?

 

[mcbethcg]

"Likely reasons for the motion include gaseous transport as something vents from under the soil, dirt falling off the MI and disturbing the soil, thermal processes"?

 

[silylene old]

<i>So what do you think my picture shows, if not the action of life on the surface? </i><br /><br />Ever see the movie "Tremors" ?<br /><br />Seriously, it could simply the the soil relaxing back to a more stable state after being disturbed. Or it could be that the soil several inches away was disturbed by a wheel on the rover, and this caused a slight movement of the surface "crust". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[Swampcat]

<font color="yellow">"So what do you think my picture shows, if not the action of life on the surface?"</font><br /><br /> Although the raw images were taken within about 30 minutes of each other at the same time of day (if I did the math right), the position of the camera has moved enough to change both the angle of lighting and the perspective of the subject. It's likely nothing more than what silylene said and a little fun with Photoshop...nothing more.<br /><br />Below is an animation taken from the same raw images with a little more of the surrounding area, including part of a nearby rock so you can see how much the camera moves. And no morphing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[bobvanx]

Thanks, folks, especially swampcat. Yes, I think your math is right, nearly same time of day one day apart. The different camera angles are a real issue, but they also present an opportunity.<br /><br />For example, if the camera angle truly created all the motion, then wouldn't the particles all move the same direction? For example, left to right? Yet we have movement in all directions, and some particles appearing and others vanishing.<br /><br />Images I compare like this taken within minutes of each other don't show this much motion, even with a shift in the camera.

 

[bobvanx]

I'm glad you qualified the word "crust."<br /><br />A crust wouldn't relax like this. I've studied the brine crusts and desert crusts at Owens Dry Lake and those non-saline surfaces out in Anza Borrego, and they do crumble if it's the actual surface that was disturbed.<br /><br />But areas nearby are not disturbed nor altered, since the stress fractures the area being pushed.<br />

 

[silylene old]

<i>But anything more than dead cells? I don't believe mars ever got past the single cell evolutionary stage or earlier, at best. I totally agree.</i><br /><br />I wouldn't assume alien life is cellular (not that you necessarily think this).<br /><br />Suppose alien life was non-cellular. Would we recognize it? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<i>"But anything more than dead cells? I don't believe mars ever got past the single cell evolutionary stage or earlier, at best."</i> -- stevehw33<br /><br />Anything more than dead cells? How about live cells? The major hurtle is the development of life. If there ever was a global community of living cells on Mars, I'm optimistic about the ability of desendants of those cells, through selection of appropriate mutations, to continue living under the martian surface today. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Skylark]

centsworth, your questions<br />1. How often is the jump from prebiotic to biotic chemistry made?<br />2. How often does life advance past the microbic stage.<br />3. How often does life evolve to very advanced stages, up to intelligence.<br />4. Did life arise in our solar system elsewhere than on Earth?<br /><br />are similar to the questions asked by the Drake Equation. The confusion regarding SETI and astrobiology may result from the fact that the SETI Institute is involved in both. Jill Tarter is in charge of looking for intelligent signals, previously as Project Phoenix and now with the Allen Telescope Array. While Frank Drake heads up the SETI Institute's Center for Study of Life in the Universe team, which is a member of the NASA Astrobiology Institute. <br />I definitely agree that finding microbial life elsewhere would be dramatic. Hopefully, it could be determined that it didn't come from the same source as life on Earth. Life on Mars and Earth could've been transported between our planets. But, if we find microbes on Venus, Europa or Titan we would be certain that life can exist anywhere.

 

[robnissen]

The timing of this thread is very interesting considering yesterday's announcement about the signal SETI may have found. The best time to buy stocks is when everyone else has given up on stocks and thinks the market is going down. Maybe the most likely time to find intelligent life is when everyone else has given up and assumed that we will never find intelligent life because it is either too hard to find, or there is no intelligent life to find.

 

[bobvanx]

ebu,<br /><br />How I found these motions was by trying to make stereo pairs and noticing that features weren't lining up. It's as though we took a picture of a tree with the leaves moving from the wind, using one camera, taking an image from the left eye and the right eye. Most features would drop into stereo, but some would show independent motion. Parallax, even in rough surfaces, displays a simple back-and-forth motion. In this and other images, I can find lots of motion that is expanding/contracting, moving perpendicular to the parallax, and so on.<br /><br />Here's a great pair from Oppy from recent sols, 210 and 212<br /><br />