Sour Grapes

[spacelifejunkie]

Here is a quote from the article link below.<br /><br />"So I think the only lasting impact of the X-Prize Cup will be another series of humorous video sequences that future documentary producers can use to show how childish and naive we were back in the 21st century. Bids are probably rolling in to X-Prize headquarters from the History Channel right now. If I were in their shoes, I'd erase all that footage before it appears on our grandchildren's LED-walls and makes them hoot derisively like I did all last weekend."<br /><br />Jeffrey F. Bell is a former space scientist and recovering pro-space activist.<br /><br />http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/A_Second_Childhood_For_The_Rocketeers_999.html<br /><br /><br />If you can't say anything nice.......<br /><br /><br />SLJ

 

[docm]

Grapes hell, he's starting a vinegar factory <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[PistolPete]

He's probobly angry because he completely missed the boat on this one, and he's just saying these things in a vain attempt to make himself not look like the fool that he is. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><em>So, again we are defeated. This victory belongs to the farmers, not us.</em></p><p><strong>-Kambei Shimada from the movie Seven Samurai</strong></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

I hope he will be proven wrong. But the jury is basically still out as to whether the X-prize, X-cup or other upstart entreprenurial efforts will eventually gain low cost LEO access. Of course, just because the rocket cars of the 1920s didn't contribute much to rocketry as a whole...dosn't mean the same thing will automatically happen with current privately funded efforts. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[bpfeifer]

I'd just like to point out the von Braun and several other German engineers got their start in a rocket club building club... such things can be good training grounds. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[j05h]

> <br />I hope he will be proven wrong. But the jury is basically still out as to whether the X-prize, X-cup or other upstart entreprenurial efforts will eventually gain low cost LEO access. Of course, just because the rocket cars of the 1920s didn't contribute much to rocketry as a whole...dosn't mean the same thing will automatically happen with current privately funded efforts.<br /><br />Sure the X Prize and Cup might not lead to practical spaceflight. However, Jeff Bell's flamebait will definitely NOT lead to general-access spaceflight. He is all flame and no fuel, so to speak. He makes good points on some things, some times, but is usually to busy beating his hobby-horse to offer solutions to real problems. If he offered a few more constructive suggestions, his writing might have more relevance. And he lurks on this board looking for leads, promise. <br /><br />Josh "Peanut Gallery" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[spacester]

I am in way to good a mood to over-analyze jeffy's latest screed, but I did just scan it. (Hint on the good mood thing: college football upset yesterday)<br /><br />The gist of it seems to me to be a desire, nay a demand, that a large set of independant, entrepreneurial, innovative and dedicated people who possess substantial, verifiable business skills and ALSO possess cutting edge rocketry skills AND get everything right the first time, he needs these people to be made to appear out of thin air so as to satisfy his needs. <br /><br />Um, well, if such people existed, they would constitute an extant industry. None such industry being observed to exist, one can conclude that such a set of people needs to be developed somehow. Their purpose being of course to make Mr. Bell happy. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />Hmmm. . . if I wanted to develop such a group of people, how would I go about it? Hmmm . . .<br /><br />Oh wait! Some guy named Diamandis is already all over this! How about we go along with that idea for a bit?<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[kdavis007]

I say something, but I could get kicked off this forum...

 

[spacelifejunkie]

I can see it now.<br /><br />Tonight on the History Channel, "The Rennaissance of Spaceflight." <br />Brought to you by Armadillo Aerospace, world leaders in personal spaceflight. When you need to get somewhere and somewhere fast, fly the Armadillo! Also, by Virgin Galactic, the premier space transportion company. Now offering lunar flights. Fly space in style and safety with Virgin Galactic.<br />Tonight, meet the men and women, see the machines and live the history of man's breakout into the solar system. Twenty five years ago, Peter Diamandis, founder and CEO of the Rocket Racing League is here to tell you the story. Cut away to Peter..."I still wake up in the morning excited to be a part of pushing the boundaries of space technology. Sometimes I can't believe how much has happened but most times I'm thinking about how to go even further. Mars, the asteroids, Jupiter, it's not impossible."..........<br /><br /><br />Jeffrey Bell will eat his words. I hope he is still alive when the History Channel does make this documentary, I'll send him a copy.<br /><br /><br />SLJ<br />

 

[qso1]

bpfeifer:<br />I'd just like to point out the von Braun and several other German engineers got their start in a rocket club building club...<br /><br />Me:<br />Good point. I would also add that even if the rocket car drivers didn't make a direct contribution to spaceflight, they made an indirect contribution to it by way of operational experience with rockets, albiet small ones. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

J05H:<br />However, Jeff Bell's flamebait will definitely NOT lead to general-access spaceflight.<br /><br />Me:<br />On this I totally agree. He seems unable to find anything good about human spaceflight. I thought he was just the rag on NASA or taxpayer spaceflight type but now with his criticism of the private efforts...whats he care? They certainly are not spending his tax money.<br /><br />JO5H:<br />He is all flame and no fuel, so to speak. He makes good points on some things,<br /><br />Me:<br />He does make some good points. This in part because lets face it, human spaceflight is still difficult and expensive. We haven't made any progress towards reducing the cost of getting to low orbit. But the reason I say the jury is still out on private ventures is that they have yet to prove they can or can't reduce the cost of access to orbit. However, as for Bell, his monaker says it all...recovering pro space activist. That alone keeps his opinion towards being anti human spaceflight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[ebort]

back in the 80's a Rolls Royce engineer developed a jet/rocket hybrid engine in his spare time but was denied funding by the UK Government to build a prototype..anybody either remember this (it was reported on the national news at the time) or know what happenned to the design..?<br />

 

[spacefire]

As it was pointed out during the live coverage of X-Prize, the thing already gained was the wonder and awe on the faces of children. Seeing real rockets up close might make one of them take the 'I wanna be an astronaut when I grow up' beyond a phase, into a career in science or engineering.<br />In taht respect, the X-Prize cup is already accomplishing a lot by bringing spaceflight back into the minds of the public, just like barnstormers did in the 1920s or even failed aircrafty appearing at early airshows like Rheims.<br />Jeffrey Bell seems to be a troll with a degree and nothing else. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[annodomini2]

It was called SABRE, the guy is still working on it apparently:<br /><br />http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/sabre.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[ebort]

MANY THANKS ANNODOMINI!<br /><br />you have no idea how many folks have told me i was imagining things when i mentioned this!!! (i was even beginning to believe them)<br /><br />that's the one allright!!<br />fantastic news that it is still alive and by the looks of it well..if they had the funding i'm sure they could have test flown the concept by now...makes me wonder why the ESA even if not NASA haven't adopted the design at least for testing

 

[rocketman5000]

NDH (Not Designed Here) - Happens all the time,

 

[docm]

IMO he could be the aerospace equivalent of Preston Tucker. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[josh_simonson]

Actually the cost of spaceflight has fallen by about half since the 80's, it's just invisible due to inflation. If that pace of improvement can be maintained for 40 years we may indeed see CATS, just not overnight. Certainly Delta V is a big improvement on Titan IV, and Aries V will be a big improvement on STS (by almost an order of magnitude). Then there's spacex... There's plenty of room for optimism that prices will continue to decline at a gradual rate.<br /><br />Perhaps someone needs to coin a 'moore's law of rockets', like 1/2 every 10-15 years that can become a self-fufilling prophecy.

 

[qso1]

Your right about that. I've pointed that out in previous posts but in the one I posted here. I should have clarified what I meant by difficult and expensive. Difficult meaning its still a major operation to get a shuttle launch off and shuttles fly no more often than expendables. Expensive to the public and politicians who are indifferent or against human spaceflight...it is still considered very expensive.<br /><br />And in truth, despite the cost drop, its still expensive when were talking half a billion dollars per shuttle mission. But its still worth doing, especially when compared to what we spend on Iraq, the deficit, etc.<br /><br />NASA budgets were 2% GDP prior to 1973 or thereabouts. After 1973-74, they fell to 1% GDP or as you stated, fallen about half. Unfortunately, I no longer think NASA can pull off CATS as evidenced by their reliance on Apollo tech for our return to the moon. Moores law for rockets has yet to occur. Rockets are launched at about the same frequency as they were in 1970.<br /><br />On the plus side, private industry/enterprise may yet pull off CATS. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>