Soyuz carrying guns?

bobblebob · Feb 15, 2008

"HOUSTON - All self-respecting “space cadets” of the 1950s carried holstered sidearms to fend off the spies, wandering carnivores and assorted bug-eyed monsters they might meet in space. That was Hollywood, of course. The notion that modern space cadets blast off carrying guns is so silly that space officials won't even talk about the idea. But that does not mean the astronauts are not armed. In fact, Moscow’s latest diplomatic offensive to get a treaty banning weapons in space may be shot down by one of the proposed pact's little-noticed provisions: Nobody else should get to put weapons in space, but Russia gets to keep the ones it already has. Cosmonauts regularly carry handguns on their Soyuz spacecraft — and actually, that's not unreasonable. There are practical and historical justifications. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23131359/ Didnt know that <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" />

3488 · Feb 15, 2008

That makes sense shuttle_guy! Sometimes it took quite a while to locate the Soyuz post landing, in the Kazakh steppes. Not to mention hungry bears roaming around. <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

venator_3000 · Feb 15, 2008

I've read in Oberg's "Red Star in Orbit" that when Alexei Leonov and another cosmonaut landed in a Voskhod they were several hundred miles outside the landing zone. They spent the night in a freezing capsule with wolves literally pawing at the slightly ajar door. There have also been similar incidents, including one Soviet capsule that aborted its flight on the way to orbit. Again, cosmonauts surrounded by wolves in the cold. Better safe than sorry... v3k <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

josh_simonson · Feb 15, 2008

I wouldn't consider handguns, 'weapons in space'. as cause for concern like anti-satelite weapons and nuclear weapon platforms. Small arms of some type (perhaps not traditional projectile weapons) will be needed eventually if there are enough people to warrent a law enforcement presence.

moonmadness · Feb 15, 2008

lol <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> No bears. And the "wolves" were spotted miles away from the capsule by the recovery chopper. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I'm not a rocket scientist, but I do play one on the TV in my mind. </div>

brandbll · Feb 15, 2008

What would happen, physics wise if someone shot a gun in a soyuz capsule or in the space station? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

3488 · Feb 15, 2008

Depressurization of the Soyuz / ISS. The air would rush out of the hole into space. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

josh_simonson · Feb 15, 2008

Depends on the type of gun/ammunition and where they hit. There are frangible bullets available that will only go through a single layer of stuff (so people on the other side of walls are safe from stray bullets). If using that type of ammunition most shots would probably hit someone or something before hitting a pressurized layer of wall material and the station wouldn't lose pressure. They might well be able to patch a small hole before losing to much pressure as well - it'd take a while for all the air to escape a 9mm hole. The windows would probably take the impact without a problem since they're made to resist micrometeors. Also, of course, for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, so the person doing the shooting might go spinning and hit their head. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

j05h · Feb 16, 2008

> From what I have read that was crew preference. I'll take a full case plus some tracers, please. This is such a non-issue. It comes up every couple of years because someone in the media is looking for some space-controversy and "oh noz, it's teh GUNS!!" seems to come up. Lisa Nowak aside, people that fly in space are remarkably stable - and there are plenty of better ways to go psycho in space than with a puny little survival pistol. We have this thing called the Second Amendment in the USA, and Russians have a long history of bearing Arms as well. And everyone flying is an adult, so I think the reporters at WESH and others should get over their own biases and spend some time on the shooting range. Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center">We need a first generation of pioneers. </div> </div>

docm · Feb 16, 2008

Maybe what's needed is for some of these reporters to spend a week camping in rural Khazachstan or Siberia without a gun. They'll either come back educated about the real world or not come back at all. Either way we win <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

j05h · Feb 17, 2008

Basically we have 2 generations in America that have never been in the woods. People think "meat" is something that comes wrapped on styrofoam and that all the little critters in the woods sing songs and dance together. Never been in a real survival situation, maybe never even been camping. Never mind getting dropped in Middle-o-Nowhere, Kazakstan. Law of the Jungle, folks. Josh (showing his redneck roots) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center">We need a first generation of pioneers. </div> </div>

docm · Feb 18, 2008

Not with the handgun I'd carry <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> .600 Nitro Express pistol Frame: Thompson Center Encore Pistol, stainless steel, Rynite grip & forend Barrel: Van Horn-Encore, S.S., 17.25” (14.375”) straight bull, stainless steel muzzle brake Scope mount: SSK T’SOB, S.S. ¼ rib, 6-screws, 4 SSK S.S. scope rings Scope (optional): Weaver Classic, recoil-proof silver, 2x28mm, pistol Loading Data: Brass: Horneber, .600 nitro Express Bullet: 1,040 grain lead Powder: 117 grains Hodgdon 4831 Primers: Large Rifle magnum Muzzle velocity: 1,200 FPS Muzzle energy: 3,600 ft/lbs Loading Data (Full Nitro Loads): Brass: Horneber, .600 nitro Express Bullet: 900 grain jacketed Powder: 158 grains Hodgdon 4831 Primer: Large Rifle magnum Muzzle velocity: 1,670 FPS Muzzle energy: 5,550 ft/lbs Wanna rumble? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

schmack · Feb 18, 2008

i have never experienced a pack of wolves. but i must admit that untill now i would not have been particularly frightend of them. grab the first one to attack you by the neck and kill it with gusto. do the same to the second and third (surely they are not accustomed to attacking an intelligent being with opposable thumbs and intelligence enough to move and attack in return)and make the most of a bad situtation ie: cook and eat the first one. i mean, most astronaughts and cosmonaughts are ex millitary who are not afraid of a gang of drunken men much less a gang of scared hungry wolves.. ( note i do not mention bears.. different story) but wolves would be easy enough to scare off... surely? in the above situation the only weapon needed is a wind proof cigarette lighter and ceratinly not a hand gun (or maybe one with only one or two bullets for ammo) is needed. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Assumption is the mother of all stuff ups Gimme some Schmack Schmack! </div>

docm · Feb 18, 2008

have never experienced a pack of wolves. That, sir, is patently obvious. Wolves outside of Oz are as far from a dingo as a pot bellied pig is from a Tennessee wild boar, and you certainly don't want to mess with those <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> but wolves would be easy enough to scare off... surely? No, and especially not when they're hungry and/or have cubs. One or two of the smaller N. American wolves (Eastern wolf, Great Plains wolf etc. - 100+ lbs) can take down an ill tempered moose weighing half a ton or more. Mackenzie Valley (the Rockies, Alaska & Canada), Tundra (Siberia) and Russian wolves are in a whole other zone being much larger, up to 170 lbs, and more aggressive. The latter two are what cosmonauts would have to deal with and they are responsible for most persons killed by wolves every year. Most who are killed are unarmed. Getting the picture? in the above situation the only weapon needed is a wind proof cigarette lighter Your perception of their fear of fire is wrong. Armed so you would be an easy light snack for the kiddies. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Feb 18, 2008

The latter two are what cosmonauts would have to deal with and they are responsible for most persons killed by wolves every year There have been no documented fatalities from wild halthy wolves in North America since 1900 http://wildlife.alaska.gov/pubs/techpubs/research_pdfs/techb13_full.pdf. In the past 50 years there have been 8 documented falatlies in Eurasia from healthy wild wolves. http://www.nina.no/archive/nina/Publikasjoner/oppdragsmelding/NINA-OM731.pdf . The vast majority of wolf attacks today are on children in semi-rural areas of India. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

schmack · Feb 18, 2008

fair enough. i would like to discuss this further though without de-railing this thread. i'll start another in animal world. suffice to say that i think a handgun in space is probably a tad unesesarry. even for 77 kilo wolves. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Assumption is the mother of all stuff ups Gimme some Schmack Schmack! </div>

docm · Feb 18, 2008

There have been no documented fatalities from wild halthy wolves in North America since 1900 True enough, but then I said most wolf related fatalities were caused by the Tundra and Russian wolves by referring to "the latter two". 8 documented fatalities due to Eurasian wolves means by definition more were undocumented, but even that level demands precautions be taken. Similarly, when we camp in the north Michigan woods (a frequent event) we always bring a weapon as a precaution against bear attacks...which are more common than you'd think. Choices; 12 gauge magnum shotgun loaded with hardened ballistic slug hot loads, T/C Contender 45-70 pistol (a large rifle round) or a Ruger .44 semi-auto carbine with hot loads. Usually more than one, but always at least one that anyone can handle (the Ruger). Better safe than sorry when dealing with apex predators. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

j05h · Feb 18, 2008

Not just apex predators. Moose and other very large herbivores can be plenty dangerous. Despite industrialization, most of the Earth is still wilderness. j <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center">We need a first generation of pioneers. </div> </div>

JonClarke · Feb 18, 2008

True enough, but then I said most wolf related fatalities were caused by the Tundra and Russian wolves by referring to "the latter two". Since there have been only 8 fatalities from healthy wild wolves in 50 years it would be have more accurate to say "in the extremely small number of attacks that have taken place". 8 documented fatalities due to Eurasian wolves means by definition more were undocumented, but even that level demands precautions be taken. Not at all. Given the extensive research carried out it is unlikely there were a significant number unknow attacks. Wolves are not a major risk in these environments - certainly not compared to other wildlife (e.g. bears) let alone firearm accidents, vehicle accidents, and plane crashes. Similarly, when we camp in the north Michigan woods (a frequent event) we always bring a weapon as a precaution against bear attacks...which are more common than you'd think. Choices; 12 gauge magnum shotgun loaded with hardened ballistic slug hot loads, T/C Contender 45-70 pistol (a large rifle round) or a Ruger .44 semi-auto carbine with hot loads. Usually more than one, but always at least one that anyone can handle (the Ruger). Better safe than sorry when dealing with apex predators. So long as the "safety" precautions don't end up being more dangerous than the supposed hazard. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

docm · Feb 18, 2008

Since there have been only 8 fatalities from healthy wild wolves in 50 years The odds may be 1 fatality every 6 years, but I wouldn't plan on being that 1. Nope, I follow survival rules in the wilderness and that includes taking a weapon strong enough to kill a bear along for the ride. So long as the "safety" precautions don't end up being more dangerous than the supposed hazard. That's why weapons have safeties, experienced shooters leave the chamber empty and take weapons/combat training, which in our family usually takes place for the kids at age 9/10. I learned to shoot a hunting bow and a 12 gauge magnum slug gun at 8 and all 3 of our adult kids, including our daughter, could handle them and a 30-06 by age 10. Erik learns next summer (turns 10 next month). They get their first hunting license at 12, usually a sportsmans license which is for both small and big game & fishing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Feb 19, 2008

No deaths from healthy wild wolves in North America in the past 100 years. Compared to ~100 killed every year in firearms accidents in the same areas over the same period. Most of those 100 probably thought they knew all about safeties and proper training too. yI think I'd take my chances with the wolves. Polar bears would be a diffferent story... But we have moved off topic. So we shoudl leave it there. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

docm · Feb 19, 2008

Not quite yet; deaths have occurred in North America, one being a 22 year old man killed by wolves near Wollaston, Saskatchewan in 2005, but you also should not discount the close calls. Often they are not lethal only because of intervention by dogs or other campers/hikers and should not be discounted. Part of August 2006 Outdoor Life story on the Saskatchewan incident; <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />> Death in the Snow Two days later, on the cold night of November 8, Carnegie decided to take a walk along a trail that traces the east shoreline of the lake near Points North. He left the camp at about 5:30 p.m., saying he'd be back for supper at 7:00. It was already dark. The gregarious student probably didn't realize he was in trouble until it was too late. About 600 yards from the camp, he turned around on the trail and apparently saw a pack of wolves following him. When Carnegie’s mangled body was discovered around 7:30 p.m., prints in the bloody snow told a graphic story of coordinated pursuit, then violent predation. The footprints indicated that four wolves had shadowed Carnegie, who stopped, turned around and then tried to elude the animals before breaking into a terrified sprint for safety. The tracks suggest that the man was knocked to the ground at least twice but struggled to his feet before he was taken down a final time. The wolves reportedly fed on a portion of his body in the hour or so before a search party from camp discovered the grisly scene, scared the wolves away and recovered Carnegie’s remains. Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who arrived to investigate the following morning, don't make their investigations public, but RCMP spokesperson Heather Russell says the incident is fairly straightforward. “There is nothing to lead us to believe that death was caused by an</blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

josh_simonson · Feb 19, 2008

I'd be more worried about getting food myself in the event that it took weeks to be found. In winter the only food available if you have to live off the land is animals. In the wilderness firearms are 1000 times more useful as a tool than a weapon because instances where one has to defend themselves are relatively rare. I kayak, freedive and spearfish in an area known to hold great white sharks, relative to that hiking in lion, wolf or bear country is a walk in the park. Everyone's impression of risk is influenced by the media and their own personal experience. As long as the soyuz doesn't burn down one can always avoid the wolves by staying inside for the night. And like I said, it's completely impractical to expect there to be no 'weapons' in space in the broadest sense to include guns, knives, clubs.... I would allow anything one would reasonably expect a civil police force to field. Light machine guns, tasers and pepper spray okay, RPGs and up not. The main concern is the militarization of space, not that there be 'weapons' there in it's broadest interpretation.

CalliArcale · Feb 19, 2008

I agree -- the best use of the survival gun after a severely off-target landing would be in obtaining food. It has been mentioned that one shouldn't have a gun on board given the possibility of mental problems. I've been thinking about this, and it's BS. As astronaut Jim Lovell commented after the Apollo 13 accident, in space, suicide is not difficult. Murder would not be difficult either; there are sharp objects and massive blunt objects aplenty. In the end, I do not think having a gun on board is going to make that problem much worse. It might be prudent to keep it under lock, or at least secured in such a way that one has to think about it a bit first. The gun has never been useful to a crew after landing. Flip side of that is that no Soyuz crew has ever landed outside of Soviet or once-Soviet territory -- emergency landings in places such as the Australian outback have been considered, but never wound up being necessary. So the possibility of being stranded for a long time while crews search cannot be ruled out. Wolves, bears . . . one could face worse perils. Siberian tigers. Polar bears. Other animals if they come down someplace really unusual. And of course if one is lost long enough, the gun becomes invaluable for taking game. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

JonClarke · Feb 19, 2008

fair enough, that was outside the study period I referred to. Still, one death from a healthy wild wolf in 100 years is a trivial risk. Bees kill maany more people than that every year. Break out the nets and insecticide.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

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