space ends

[zazzzoom]

if space is infinite then it has no shape <br />if space is finite then space can take a shape

 

[kyle_baron]

<font color="yellow"><br />if space is infinite then it has no shape </font><br /><br />True<br /><font color="yellow"><br />if space is finite then space can take a shape </font><br /><br />Space can take a shape, with respect to what?<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="4"><strong></strong></font></p> </div>

 

[chardin]

That which exists is infinite.<br />Part of that which exists is finite, has a changing shape, and contains within it more shapes.

 

[lukman]

Obeservable universe is finite. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[ashish27]

we have spoted galaxies that are as far as 15 billion ly but nobody has yet confidently ascertained that nothing lies beyond that. COBE readings confirmed that the Universe is not smaller than that but we do not yet no for certain if its bigger than that.<br /><br />Sometimes I wish, our lifespan were in millions of years, so that we can at least experience 1% of the events in this Universe.

 

[lukman]

Try this link, may answer your question<br /><br /> link <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[weeman]

<font color="yellow"> Sometimes I wish, our lifespan were in millions of years, so that we can at least experience 1% of the events in this Universe. <br /> </font><br /><br />If Mankind exists for another million years, and our historical records and information stay true, then technically we will be able to catalog events over a million year span.<br /><br />Generations who live a million years from now, will be able to compare their findings with our findings, and record the universes events within that time period.<br /><br />Of course, the hardest part is for us to even exist for that long <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[weeman]

<font color="yellow"> if space is infinite then it has no shape </font><br /><br />Correct. Only things within it have shape (galaxies, stars, etc.)<br /><br /><font color="yellow"> if space is finite then space can take a shape </font><br /><br />It depends on how you are defining our universe. Do you believe it is infinite or finite? In a literal meaning, if the universe is defined as being infinite, many people might visualize it as going on forever; if you hop in a spaceship and travel in one direction forever you will never reach an end to all the stars and galaxies.<br /><br />I personally believe that the universe is finite in size and age. And, even being finite in size, it still has no explainable shape. <br /><br />However, the word "finite", used in this case, can be difficult to use for explaining the nature of the universe. In a sense, the universe likes to deceive our brains with its "trickery". <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />What I mean is that even if the universe isn't infinite in a literal sense, there exists no boundry, no end. The universe is all that there is, it is Everything that exists. So, you can't reach an end to it, it has no end, yet it is not infinite either. This makes perfect sense, right? <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /><br /><br />Einstein believed that if you circumnavigated the universe, you would end up right where you started. It's pretty much impossible to visualize, because the universe may exist in higher dimensions than what we can perceive. <br /><br />So, if you traveled forever in your spacechip, and thought you were traveling through an infinite number of galaxies, under closer inspection, you would find that the familiar looking galaxy that you kept passing was actually the Milky Way <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

<font color="yellow">So, if you traveled forever in your spacechip, and thought you were traveling through an infinite number of galaxies, under closer inspection, you would find that the familiar looking galaxy that you kept passing was actually the Milky Way </font><br /><br />Actually assumeing that the universe is sphereical in nature, even if we were able to go along its edge until we came back to where we started we would not recognize the Milky Way. We have two known other galaxies headed our way. Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy and the Andromeda Galaxy. <br /><br />Canis is suppose to be the first one to reach our galaxy. Because of it's size and our size we will be able to pretty much just absorb it. This will still change the shape of our galaxy.<br /><br />Next we have the Andromeda Galaxy. This one will change our galaxy like Canis never even dreamed of doing. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[weeman]

<font color="yellow"> Actually assumeing that the universe is sphereical in nature, even if we were able to go along its edge until we came back to where we started we would not recognize the Milky Way. </font><br /><br />Right. I was stating it in a more hypothetical sense. If nothing were to change the Milky Way, you would eventually notice yourself passing by it over and over again. <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[nogard]

“Universe†~ Everything that we know and hold dear.<br />“Space†~ Everything, just everything.<br /><br />I get into these talks with my sister, Space as I see it in my head has no end, no beginning, when trying to think of Space try not thinking of an end or a beginning, don't think of time. How old the stars are, how far apart they are. Does that make sense to anyone or just me <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> When I think like that I can hold on to the idea of Space even if it is just for a minute.<br /><br />Now if you want to talk about the observable universe, what we see with our technology and the expansion of everything in my opinion is just the beginning. So many astronomers talk about the universe expanding forever until one day everything we know dies out and then even atoms fall apart. But then again they are thinking in the terms of time, at some time in the distant future this will be the outcome and the universe as we know it will be gone. <br /><br />Now keep in mind there is no beginning of time no end, it would be strange to think that we are just here right “now†when everything is happening, once it is gone that is it. There is more to the universe than just our small perception of it. Outside our visible universe beyond the vast void (space) I can picture other “universes†and I am not talking on a different dimension, picture our universe as one object, out there in the void of space there are many objects like our universe, just like there are many galaxies. Now we could never observe this because just as the galaxies grow further apart one day the light from a distance galaxy will no longer make its way to ours this would play the same with other “universesâ€.

 

[Kalstang]

<font color="yellow">Now we could never observe this because just as the galaxies grow further apart one day the light from a distance galaxy will no longer make its way to ours this would play the same with other “universesâ€.</font><br /><br />To expound on this a bit. Perhaps our universe will run into another one. Much like galaxies in ours run into each other. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[nogard]

But I wonder if a universe itself actually moves through space or does it just expand from a central point where it began. But if they do move I think a universe would die out or gravity would pull it back together before it would come into contact with another universe in my little theory. <br /><br />Or Perhaps remnants of dead universes (ones that have died out) come into contact with other matter over “time†with other universes that perhaps have died out themselves the remnants over an infinite period gather together, gravity plays its roll again and creates a new universe (big bang).

 

[space_coops]

The Universe cannot move through space as it is space its self. The Big Bang was an explosion OF space, not IN space.

 

[nogard]

That is where I don't agree with a few things. When I think of space I think of the infinite void. When the big bang occurred I see the area outside of the event as space. I know quite a few scientists think that space is expanding and not the material within, but there really is more to it.<br /><br />In my mind it is easier to think that space as infinite then to think of it as finite.

 

[Kalstang]

<font color="yellow">The Universe cannot move through space as it is space its self. The Big Bang was an explosion OF space, not IN space.</font><br /><br />No the BB was an explosion of matter and energy. Space was what it was in when it exploded. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[weeman]

<font color="yellow"> No the BB was an explosion of matter and energy. Space was what it was in when it exploded. <br /> </font><br /><br />Hmmm, is there a little more info to your answer? Your answer almost sounds sarcastic to me <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />I would have to agree more with Space_coops statement. The BB was the expansion of matter, energy AND space. The matter and energy did not expand into the space, the space expanded with the matter and energy. Before the BB there was no space, nor was there any matter or energy. <br /><br />The word 'explosion' also gives the BB a misleading image. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

Nope my answer wasnt meant to be sarcastic. <br /><br />What would "space" expand into? <br /><br />Think of two balloons. One inside the other. The one thats inside is the "matter and energy". The one on the outside is "space". (now going by what your saying) These balloons are inside a container that represents the universe without matter, energy, and space. This container is steel. How would everything expand beyond the steel? <br /><br />Now take the balloons out of the container. They will continue to expand since they are not contained inside the container. But what are they expanding into? Answer: More space. But how can you have "more" space with regards to the universe? You can't.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">The word 'explosion' also gives the BB a misleading image.</font><br /><br />Weather it exploded or expanded doesn't matter here. Either way you can't have something expand/explode into "more" space. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[ashish27]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> Weather it exploded or expanded doesn't matter here. Either way you can't have something expand/explode into "more" space <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Yes we can. That is the point. I like to think of the BigBang as the BigStrech. Look around your room. Suddenly the walls, the roof and the floor stretch and your room becomes as big as a movie screening room . The distance between all furnitures increases dramatically from what they were previously. Thats what happened during BB.<br /><br />All the matter that you see in today's Universe was already present at the time of the BB, packed into a single point of infinite density. Thats why laws of physics break down at BB because we can't explain infinite density in terms of known mathematics.

 

[spacecrusader]

what we need to know is, whats outside space. and some astronomers say that every day, our space expands, and that everything would is spreading out.

 

[Kalstang]

<font color="yellow">Suddenly the walls, the roof and the floor stretch and your room becomes as big as a movie screening room .</font><br /><br />And just what are all these things expanding into? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

In reply to "And just what are all these things expanding into? "<br />----------------------<br /><br />You are assuming the Universe fundamental reality is topological. But this is a prejudice. Actually EPR experiments (Aspect's, Soares'...) have demonstrated non-locality.<br />Or at least that affecting variables to space (or spacetime) coordinates is not enough to represent reality.<br />Mathematically we can build a 4-dimension topological compact space R4 from N (integers), then Q(rationals), then R (real numbers). But just because we can build R4 does not mean that the universe is R4. <br />We can build many mathematical objects. Including closed dimensions. Or nontopological spaces.<br /><br />Best regards.<br />

 

[nogard]

We can only assume that space is topological based everything we see. Mathematically many scientists have found a solution to many questions only later to find that their solution is proven wrong by observation of the univrese. Sure we can create a math to create a 4th dimension, but like what is said that doesn't create a 4th dimension.<br /><br />I believe the answer to many questions will be by observation and greater understanding of the workings of the universe.

 

[weeman]

<font color="yellow"> And just what are all these things expanding into? <br /> </font><br /><br />I think, for the sake of this argument, that we must surrender our visualizations that the universe, as a whole, can somehow be described using simple 3D models within the comfort of our own homes <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />The vast reaches of space are, in a sense, expanding in every direction. It's not that the universe is expanding out from one single point, but rather the universe expands at every single point. Now, this doesn't exactly hold true to the ENTIRE universe, otherwise our own solar system would expand apart. Beyond our local cluster, and on into interstellar space, every point of space expands away from every other point of space. <br /><br />This is what I mean by the universe expanding into itself. If we visualize the universe expanding into something else, then it would almost have to give it a "boundry", or and "end" to its existence.<br /><br />However, the radical idea is that there exists no boundry. Go ahead, try to find it, hop in your spaceship and travel forever, I can bet you that you will never find it!!<br /><br />This is where I believe that an analogy that uses a ballon expanding into the space around it is hugely false for describing the true nature of the universe. <br /><br />We sit here and assume that if the balloon can't expand without the space outside of its borders, then the universe must not be able to do so under the same circumstances. We are trying to use a tiny model that is supposed to describe something that is infinitely greater than us.<br /><br />Sure it's possible that parallel universes, multiple universes, or some other universes exist, but as for now, all we know is that THIS universe exists. And as far as we know, it represents EVERYTHING, it represents all of everything that exists, everything that ever can and ever will exist. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

In reply to:<br />"We can only assume that space is topological based everything we see."<br />-------------------------<br />1) Well, the point is that this is no longer true (with the EPR experiments). We "see" things that are no longer consistent with locality.<br />2) You said "space". Do you mean "universe" or a space in the mathematical sense? <br />3) You are rightly emphasizing the importance of observations. But the fourth dimension I referred too was that of Einsteinian spacetime. Exchanging a space direction with a time direction (rotation in 4D) is got by accelerating (increase v/c, i.e. the Lorenz factor). Considering a 3D space distinct from a 1D time was 19th century physics. This is no longer consistent with observations.<br /><br />Best regards.