Stargazing Space is not finite but infinite

[spacedweller]

Hello fellow space dwellers, new member here!
I did many times talk with random people about this topic, is space infinite or finite and if so why...

I did not research much on that topic except watching some videos and read articles that present various theories such as the one by Michio Kaku about multiverse, string theory and similar.

I know there is no answer to this (obviously) but those theories are far from logical (and thus sane) conclusions, unless they try to prove that logic should be pushed away, such that there is something more interesting than just logic.

I'm not trying to assert anything but space should be most likely infinite because that's most logical theory, any other theory is ofc. is interesting to study but not logical enough in comparison with infinite space theory...

Why?
Simply because if space is finite then that means there is an end somewhere right?
And if there is an end, then logical question is, what's behind that end? what's after?

Well that's where "multiverse" theory tries to shade some light, there are multiple universes, in other words we'll never know because if there are trillions of galaxies then there could be trillion of universes, normal thing to think about.
That not only does not help understand the problem, it only makes it harder to answer.

Mistakes from history repeat again:
Make no mistake, this is not new question, people didn't knew about space as we know it today there was a belief earth if flat, such that there is an end of the land where nobody can go, obviously nobody did because it would take your entry life to go around, also travel restrictions etc. so nobody was going against that. (or cared about)
Don't say it's because of the Church because 1.) that's irrelevant and 2.) the Church was the center of science in old world anyway...

Same is today, we know earth is not flat but round, however now there is a belief space must be some kind of a big balloon with an end somewhere BUT nobody can go there because it's too far and because we have no tools for such a trip.

Don't you think those scientists that present such theories do the mistake of the past?
I think they do, however on the other side I do appreciate those theories because it would be silly to just hard believe space is infinite without even thinking about other possibilities.

ofc. one thing that is not logical about infinite space theory is the infinity itself, it's hard to believe or imagine infinity, something that does not end anywhere huh... but it's still more "normal" thing rather than saying there is an end without telling what could be after that end.

Bottom line is this:
In my perception, space (universe) is infinite, space cannot be finite, finite space is absurd as it was absurd to believe earth is flat plate.

I'm really interested about your opinions and/or references that may help this topic be more interesting than just my personal opinion because infinite or finite space is one of my favorite space topics.

 

[Helio]

Simply because if space is finite then that means there is an end somewhere right?
And if there is an end, then logical question is, what's behind that end? what's after?

Age-old questions. The universe, contrary to mainstream science views before Lemaitre, was for an infinite, Static universe. Big Bang theory gave us a shocking beginning, so something far more finite is plausible. An end isn't that big of a stretch of an idea give BBT, though we have a long way to go for a true end.

Mistakes from history repeat again:
Make no mistake, this is not new question, people didn't knew about space as we know it today there was a belief earth if flat, such that there is an end of the land where nobody can go, obviously nobody did because it would take your entry life to go around, also travel restrictions etc. so nobody was going against that. (or cared about)
Don't say it's because of the Church because 1.) that's irrelevant and 2.) the Church was the center of science in old world anyway...

Aristotle convinced others the world was spherical, and the curve in Earth's shadows during a lunar eclipse supported his view. The Church in the 13th century adopted Aristotelian views, hence a round Earth, which is why Columbus sailed west for India.

Same is today, we know earth is not flat but round, however now there is a belief space must be some kind of a big balloon with an end somewhere BUT nobody can go there because it's too far and because we have no tools for such a trip.

The balloon analogy is 2D where no center, and no end, can be found on the surface. We have to imagine a 3D version of it, but that's tricky.

Bottom line is this:
In my perception, space (universe) is infinite, space cannot be finite, finite space is absurd as it was absurd to believe earth is flat plate.

Consider all the many arguments favoring the BBT, which has no solid competitor. Theories, nevertheless, aren't statements of Truth, and changes are very welcome. Big changes win awards.

Welcome aboard.

 

[spacedweller]

Thank you for your reply Helio!

The balloon analogy is 2D where no center, and no end, can be found on the surface. We have to imagine a 3D version of it, but that's tricky.

Consider all the many arguments favoring the BBT, which has no solid competitor.

Actually I was implicitly referring to the big bang theory when I said "now there is a belief space must be some kind of a big balloon "
Because big bang, the explosion, implies expansion in all directions from the center where the explosion happens.

However, I didn't mention BB theory explicitly because big bang AFAIK deals with history of all matter, that explosion (IF it happened) did not happen nowhere, it must have happened in space and that space could not happen to exist at same time when the explosion presumably happened.

My point is that space must have been existed as a core precondition in order for the explosion to manifest it self, because otherwise without that space where did explosion really happen?

For anything to happen there must be space for manifestation.
For example, if you go out of your house toward your car you need to move your body trough space, how else would you really go?

Space, the void, or nothingness could not become out of some explosion because space isn't matter and doesn't cause any reaction, now this is called dark matter but it's probably not relevant, because my point here is that space must exist in order for matter to exists.

This is so simple it can't be more simple, BB may have created a big balloon of expandable universe but not space, matter in our universe may be finite of course, but not space, space it self is not subject to BB theory,
because it without space there is absolute nothing.

 

[michael45]

Matter is an illusion so everything must be just space

 

[David-J-Franks]

Matter is an illusion so everything must be just space

Maybe, but space is a 'something' it's not void, it comprises quantum fields and quantum foam. Ordinary matter is mostly as you say, but not quite. It's 99.9999....% space - just think of the distance from the electron cloud to the nucleus. The constituent parts, the electrons, quarks and gluons are a bit more 'real'. Even these particles can be regarded as an illusion, a particle is not the most fundamental element to reality. Each particle has a quantum field associated with it and is an emergent property of a fluctuation in that field, (the most well known being the Higgs boson and the Higgs field).

One visualization of this is to imagine a pond that's had a stone thrown into it, the pond surface is the quantum field, and the rippled disturbance is the particle.

If you're serious about knowing more lookup quantum field theory in Wikipedia, but if like me, you may only understand the first sentence

Alternatively, string theory just about satisfies your statement, but there's currently zero evidence for it. Maybe you have something else in mind, if so let us know.

All the above is from memory, so if you think it's rubbish please say so, but only, if at the same time you put something useful in its place.

All very interesting, but what has your post got to do with the original post?

 

[Ancient One]

Maybe, but space is a 'something' it's not void, it comprises quantum fields and quantum foam. Ordinary matter is mostly as you say, but not quite. It's 99.9999....% space - just think of the distance from the electron cloud to the nucleus. The constituent parts, the electrons, quarks and gluons are a bit more 'real'. Even these particles can be regarded as an illusion, a particle is not the most fundamental element to reality. Each particle has a quantum field associated with it and is an emergent property of a fluctuation in that field, (the most well known being the Higgs boson and the Higgs field).

One visualization of this is to imagine a pond that's had a stone thrown into it, the pond surface is the quantum field, and the rippled disturbance is the particle.

If you're serious about knowing more lookup quantum field theory in Wikipedia, but if like me, you may only understand the first sentence

Alternatively, string theory just about satisfies your statement, but there's currently zero evidence for it. Maybe you have something else in mind, if so let us know.

All the above is from memory, so if you think it's rubbish please say so, but only, if at the same time you put something useful in its place.

All very interesting, but what has your post got to do with the original post?

Hello fellow space dwellers, new member here!
I did many times talk with random people about this topic, is space infinite or finite and if so why...

I did not research much on that topic except watching some videos and read articles that present various theories such as the one by Michio Kaku about multiverse, string theory and similar.

I know there is no answer to this (obviously) but those theories are far from logical (and thus sane) conclusions, unless they try to prove that logic should be pushed away, such that there is something more interesting than just logic.

I'm not trying to assert anything but space should be most likely infinite because that's most logical theory, any other theory is ofc. is interesting to study but not logical enough in comparison with infinite space theory...

Why?
Simply because if space is finite then that means there is an end somewhere right?
And if there is an end, then logical question is, what's behind that end? what's after?

Well that's where "multiverse" theory tries to shade some light, there are multiple universes, in other words we'll never know because if there are trillions of galaxies then there could be trillion of universes, normal thing to think about.
That not only does not help understand the problem, it only makes it harder to answer.

Mistakes from history repeat again:
Make no mistake, this is not new question, people didn't knew about space as we know it today there was a belief earth if flat, such that there is an end of the land where nobody can go, obviously nobody did because it would take your entry life to go around, also travel restrictions etc. so nobody was going against that. (or cared about)
Don't say it's because of the Church because 1.) that's irrelevant and 2.) the Church was the center of science in old world anyway...

Same is today, we know earth is not flat but round, however now there is a belief space must be some kind of a big balloon with an end somewhere BUT nobody can go there because it's too far and because we have no tools for such a trip.

Don't you think those scientists that present such theories do the mistake of the past?
I think they do, however on the other side I do appreciate those theories because it would be silly to just hard believe space is infinite without even thinking about other possibilities.

ofc. one thing that is not logical about infinite space theory is the infinity itself, it's hard to believe or imagine infinity, something that does not end anywhere huh... but it's still more "normal" thing rather than saying there is an end without telling what could be after that end.

Bottom line is this:
In my perception, space (universe) is infinite, space cannot be finite, finite space is absurd as it was absurd to believe earth is flat plate.

I'm really interested about your opinions and/or references that may help this topic be more interesting than just my personal opinion because infinite or finite space is one of my favorite space topics.

How everything first started out is (at this time, for us) unclear, but it probably involved some parts/type of energy increasing, upon meeting a multichemical reaction, coupled with a possible temperature flux, & light may very well have been involved. Sometime thereafter, life was achieved. We believe the known universe is currently ever expanding, & this will probably be forever. This is a great thing. Better to expand, than to contract. A more interesting question might be, what's on the other end of the black holes we observe? Dark matter, pure matter, plasma, or something so strange, we would currently have no idea what it was, if we observed it in our current spectrum, in this reality & dimension.

"If you can't handle the truth, never ask questions"

"The truth is out there" "My mansions have many rooms"

Maybe the mansions are endless, & therefore the rooms as well <> <> mansions/universes -- rooms/dimensions



The possibilities are endless, & this is a great/wonderous thing.



"Those who from heaven, to earth came"
(it depends on what your definition of the word 'Gods" is?/to a cat/dog, we humans may be 'Gods'/'"givers of live"'/able to take that, which was taken from us/them?) A guppy in a 10 gal. tank with a large piranha , wisely considers the piranha dangerous/godlike to him/holding the power of life & death.

Does not a skilled doctor/surgeon hold the power of life & death over those he/she presides/operates/doctors over?

" Never bring a knife to a gunfight, & never anger those who heal/fix/help you" Don't like healer, try a different healer/doctor.

 

[spacedweller]

A more interesting question might be, what's on the other end of the black holes we observe?

Black holes are interesting thing but I don't think they could lead into some other reality or other space.

Space is 3D model so practically there is no place for additional space, because alternative space should be somewhere within this 3D space model, not outside.

This is under assumption that space is infinite to rule out space within space scenario.
Short version: there is not "enough space" for alternative space.

---

On another side if we do assume black holes lead to alternative reality or space but still under assumption of infinite space then we're missing additional dimension(s) that would describe it, because existing infinite 3D model does not have "enough space".

"The truth is out there" "My mansions have many rooms"
Maybe the mansions are endless, & therefore the rooms as well

I guess the higher we build the tower greater the chance it will collapse at some point and then we'll know even less than before

 

[IG2007]

According to the Big Bang Theory, everything, literally everything, matter, energy, space, time - everything was created at the point of big bang. Unless you mean to say that the original expansion speed was infinity, it is impossible for the universe to be infinite. According to the literal meaning of the word "Universe" (I don't how many times I and Cat have said this before) is "One whole that is composed of everything." If the Universe is everything, there is nothing outside everything. The Universe is expanding into nothing. That is it.

I guess the higher we build the tower greater the chance it will collapse at some point and then we'll know even less than before

We just need a good engineer to build Burj Khalifa.

 

[Catastrophe]

According to the Big Bang Theory, everything, literally everything, matter, energy, space, time - everything was created at the point of big bang. Unless you mean to say that the original expansion speed was infinity, it is impossible for the universe to be infinite. According to the literal meaning of the word "Universe" (I don't how many times I and Cat have said this before) is "One whole that is composed of everything." If the Universe is everything, there is nothing outside everything. The Universe is expanding into nothing. That is it.

We just need a good engineer to build Burj Khalifa.

Please refer to Agreed terms help sensible discussion in Forum Feedback for loads of info on Universe. This is being constantly extended.

 

[spacedweller]

Hello, I guess this is a follow up from
Question - What are we expanding into? | Space.com Forums

According to the Big Bang Theory, everything, literally everything, matter, energy, space, time - everything was created at the point of big bang.

According to definition of the universe, universe is everything.
And according to big bang theory, the BB is based on observable universe (not universe - everything)

As such we don't know universe is "everything", it's just a definition.

According to definition of universe the most logical explanation is "nothing".
But I already did ask "does nothing really exist?"

If nothing does exist then what is it that?
If it doesn't exist, then what are we expanding into?

There are fundamental issues here.

 

[Catastrophe]

Quote
If nothing does exist then what is it that?
If it doesn't exist, then what are we expanding into?
There are fundamental issues here.
Quote

The above quotes (post #1) are not my words.
Most (if not all) of your quote has been answered by others inc an Astronomer Royal.
Search nothing. Non existence. "Nothing does not exist". Expansion into nothing is specifically answered.

Cat

 

[Vincent Peri]

Here is an article posted early today on Space.com:

Is there anything beyond the universe?

What's beyond the edge of the universe we live in? It's difficult to say.

www.space.com

Comments?

 

[Atlan0001]

An infinity of universes; an infinity of point horizons; can fit in an infinitely flat plane of closed up horizon enclosing each and every universe of the infinity. An infinity of universes can fit in 0-time. The "infinity", that is, and not one single energetic universe of that infinity of universes. Energy equals change equals time. Translates to time passing. The physicist talks possible convex surface plane and horizon that we are on like being on the surface of Earth. He talks it like most physicists do. The universe we observe deals in concavity of distant horizon surface and an infinity of point centers to an infinity of offset concavity, of which we are one center point (the only convex plane we are on is the one that centers on the Planck horizon, the horizon of the deep -- which is the same horizon as the one out there but in superposition. Go in any direction out toward any point of distant horizon and a traveler will travel universe to universe, to universe. Every single point of that englobing dome of horizon out there being like wormholes to infinities of universes in and through that horizon. Dimensionally bunched at that collapsed horizon (fitting into an infinitely flat plane of closed up concave horizon) they take on [dimensions and qualities] of other things, both infinite and finite and neither infinite nor finite.

 

[IG2007]

An infinity of universes; an infinity of point horizons; can fit in an infinitely flat plane of closed up horizon enclosing each and every universe of the infinity. An infinity of universes can fit in 0-time. The "infinity", that is, and not one single energetic universe of that infinity of universes. Energy equals change equals time. Translates to time passing. The physicist talks possible convex surface plane and horizon that we are on like being on the surface of Earth. He talks it like most physicists do. The universe we observe deals in concavity of distant horizon surface and an infinity of point centers to an infinity of offset concavity, of which we are one center point (the only convex plane we are on is the one that centers on the Planck horizon, the horizon of the deep -- which is the same horizon as the one out there but in superposition. Go in any direction out toward any point of distant horizon and a traveler will travel universe to universe, to universe. Every single point of that englobing dome of horizon out there being like wormholes to infinities of universes in and through that horizon. Dimensionally bunched at that collapsed horizon (fitting into an infinitely flat plane of closed up concave horizon) they take on [dimensions and qualities] of other things, both infinite and finite and neither infinite nor finite.

Why does that sound so much like sci-fi?

 

[ThePatriotBeast]

Ooooooo, we could turn it into a sci-fi movie! It could be called something like "Finite"!

 

[Atlan0001]

Why does that sound so much like sci-fi?

Jules Verne's science fiction is some of today's commonly recognized science. Science and science fiction merge. So take your own advise and "don't criticize what you can't understand..." (If I get guillotined again for replying negatively to your constant negativity, it will be my last time here!).

 

[IG2007]

(If I get guillotined again for replying negatively to your constant negativity, it will be my last time here!).

Well, that's a good parody of Bob Dylan, but, the slower one now will later be fast. I guess I was pretty vague in the post you quoted, but I guess, I should better explain myself.

An infinity of universes; an infinity of point horizons; can fit in an infinitely flat plane of closed up horizon enclosing each and every universe of the infinity. An infinity of universes can fit in 0-time.

An infinity of universes can be fit in 0-space as well, by your logic. By your logic, an infinity of universes can also be fit in a point.

The "infinity", that is, and not one single energetic universe of that infinity of universes.

The "infinity," well, that infinity can also be termed "zero" and that infinity can also be termed "nothing" and "one" and "two"... and so on.

Energy equals change equals time.

Energy = Change = Time? What? So, am I full of time? Or, could Bob Dylan have written "for the changes, they are a-timing"?

(the only convex plane we are on is the one that centers on the Planck horizon, the horizon of the deep -- which is the same horizon as the one out there but in superposition. Go in any direction out toward any point of distant horizon and a traveler will travel universe to universe, to universe. Every single point of that englobing dome of horizon out there being like wormholes to infinities of universes in and through that horizon. Dimensionally bunched at that collapsed horizon (fitting into an infinitely flat plane of closed up concave horizon)

I guess I don't need to say that, that means that my fingers are literally travelling infinite universes when they are going up and down on the keyboard. Now, tell me what is more sci-fi than that?

 

[Atlan0001]

Merriam Webster: universe (uni + versus; turn toward (to turn) // Merriam Webster: entropy (Gk. trope, change, lit., turn (to turn)): Universe (The Turning).

"Infinite" does not equate to "finite". It does equate to "infinitesimal". Infinite mirroring to infinity is mirroring to an infinity of point infinitesimals, which is all that will equate with the infinite ('1'), other than infinite ('-1'), the two the dual personality of infinite Universe (U) and itself, Mirror Universe (U), a triple personality when the net outcome, the collapsed horizon ('0'), neither infinite nor finite, is included. "Neither infinite nor finite!" Thus also extant (Merriam-Webster: to stand; be in existence (to be in existence)): "finite". Infinity of non-local, non-relative, point infinitesimals / infinity of finite local, relative, universes. 'Infinite' / 'infinitesimal' / 'infinity' is non- or null-local, non- or null-relative, non- or null-finite. If strictly one and one only existing... it can only be "infinite" (('1') ('-1')), until, or course, there are two or more (not inclusive of (('1') ('-1'))). Oops! that could be construed binary '0' and/or '1'. Oops! That, "and/or", could be construed to be "Uncertainty". Oops! That could be construed to be 'chaos', disorder, en-trope (entropy), turn (to turn) (turning) (in-turning / out-turning), Universe (U) ('The Turning') (Big Crunch Vortex / Big Hole Vacuum / Big Mirror Mirroring), infinite, infinitesimal (point infinitesimal), infinity of point infinitesimals / infinity of finite universes.... 'Chaos' ('Finite' and/or 'Infinite' and/or 'Horizon' ('Order' and/or 'Disorder' and/or 'Horizon' ('1'.... and/or.... '-1'.... and/or.... '0'))).
--------------------------------------
Just for the heck of it if you're interested in Chaos Theory and didn't want get all that technically into it, look up James Gleik's book, 'Chaos: A New Science'. There is a subject and illustration particularly interesting, I think, called the Menger Sponge. The "Menger Sponge" is also covered in Wikipedia, though not to the degree of infinite dimensionality one might like to (mind's eye) play with. Volume approaches infinitesimal. Surface approaches infinite. The more the volume approaches infinitesimal, the more the surface approaches infinite. But still cubic, and still [[potentially]] sponge-like "bubbly." The sponge can be looked at another [[opposed]] way: To wit, the more the surface approaches infinitesimal, the more the more the volume approaches infinite.

Wiki, among so many others, talks "approaching zero"! I know it is simply a figure of speech but.... Infinitesimal is not "zero" and there is really no such actual thing as approaching it (again, it is neither infinite nor finite, but is the collapsed horizon -- point and/or plane -- "betwixt and between", as the old saying goes). Infinitesimal is the next level of plane down and/or in from infinite. If it were possible to go up and/or out levels, planes. of infinite, infinitesimal would always be the next level, plane, down and/or in from that particular level, plane, of infinite. The descent is from infinite into infinitesimal which does not "approach" zero; nor finite either. The ascent is from infinitesimal into infinite which, too, does not approach zero; nor, again, finite. The truth is, they are both in fact "infinite" at every gradient of infinite. Both simply non-local, non-relative, non-zero, and non-finite. When the infinite Universe (U) mirrors itself to infinity (to, then, an infinity of point infinitesimals), they are in fact each point / plane as infinite as the original mirrored. But they, all of them, cancel each other out in and to horizon zero, leaving finite (the infinity of finite local, relative, universes). That doesn't mean they vanish; that infinite, those infinites, will vanish. It, they, will always remain in existence to be continuously dealt with (as a constancy).