Space Island Group & Solar Powered Satellites

[j05h]

How much would a modernized Sea Dragon cost? Has anyone done those numbers? Astronautix says per-flight cost of $300mil in 1962 dollars. That is a size of rocket that would immediately attract customers: you wouldn't need to worry as much about the "aero" part of the engineering. Flying nuclear bulldozers and full Mars flights becomes an option. My question is whether it would be affordable?<br /><br />Technology has changed in many ways since the original proposal. I know that Bob Truax has kept testing, but what would it cost to design and begin producing them? Roughly what would it cost to fly on one? I'd rather see it built in American shipyards (Bath Iron Works and Electric Boat) but am not choosy if Ukraine means getting the Dragon built.<br /><br />Space Island Group are still poseurs. Solar Power Sats will happen, IMHO. It just makes to much sense, once launch costs drop.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[bamabuc]

If they make the power deals and get billions of dollars, anything is possible. But if the deals fail, I dont think SIG will ever become credible.

 

[publiusr]

The point is that he is working with Griffin instead of backbiting him like the sub-orbital toy-makers. CaLV and Sea Dragon will both have uses.<br /><br />As I see it, the only way to get out of this 'com-sat only' mentality towards space is to increase the size of LVs over time. CaLV will be used for high-value articles like landers, spacecraft, etc.--with Sea Dragon being used (at first) for bulk cargo like propellants, larger SPS demonstrators, etc. We have Atlas Vs for some launches and larger LVs for others, after all.<br /><br />I find Gene more credible than Bigelow in that he really wants to work with VSE. That and the fact that the Dnepr really is only a Titan II/Delta II class vehicle--and Kistler will probably never launch.<br /><br />The point is that the whole model of space privatization is wrong. People had the faulty concept of NASA 'buying rides" and private companies building craft--and having to spend money re-creating launch pad infrastructure NASA already has. This plays to the advantage of neither party.<br /><br />Gene is different in that he only is interested in payloads--leaving LVs to the experts. I think this is a better approach--in that a space manufacturing platform atop CaLV would cost less than the money it would take to build LEO-capable craft.<br /><br />Once we see products manufactured--then there will be sufficent interest to warrant private investors to help pay for the cost of a later generation of reusables.<br /><br />Heavy Lift provides the destination--then you have rapid acess and the reason to build it.<br /><br />With the Former Soviets--they had go't funds--and privatized later.<br /><br />This works.<br /><br />And it explains why they and the Euros dominate the LV market, while Rutan is still a joke. <br /><br />If you really believe that space can sell--that private initiatives can work--forget about building your own craft and learning the hard way that spaceflight isn't easy. <br /><br />Just support payloads for existing LVs. Bigelo

 

[Swampcat]

<font color="yellow">"...the fact that the Dnepr really is only a Titan II/Delta II class vehicle..."</font><br /><br />I would just like to point out that the first launch of a Bigelow inflatable is a flight test of a one-third scale module. IIRC, the launch vehicle for the 45% scale Guardian test article and the full scale BA330 Nautilus module have not been determined as yet.<br /><br />The BA330 is 45 feet long and 22 feet in diameter with 330 cubic meters of internal volume. Two BA330 modules could provide more volume than the current ISS (around 425 cubic meters).<br /><br />Also, calling sub-orbital vehicles "toys" is disrespectful and doesn't help your argument at all. The SS1 is a functional vehicle and its sub-orbital successor, SS2, will likely make money for its owners. Whatever you might think about the purpose of sub-orbital efforts, the fact is that SS1 was the first privately funded vehicle to go to space. That's an accomplishment in its own right and deserves respect. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[publiusr]

I call them toys because they ARE toys. <br /><br />It's the toymakers who are being disrespectful of NASA with all their insipid Griffin/VSE bashing--and I sir, am fed up with THAT.

 

[Swampcat]

<font color="yellow">"I call them toys because they ARE toys."</font><br /><br />And I say they are NOT toys because they are NOT toys. We can both play that game.<br /><br />Apparently, in your way of thinking, anything created by private individuals is a toy, whether it's made to create an income or just for the fun of it.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"It's the toymakers who are being disrespectful of NASA with all their insipid Griffin/VSE bashing--and I sir, am fed up with THAT."</font><br /><br />With all <i>due</i> respect, NASA is a taxpayer funded agency and the taxpayers have a right to make their opinions known about NASA's course of action. I don't know who you are claiming to be "toymakers" (I suspect <b>all</b> private space entrepreneurs are included), but you should back that statement up with a list of all those you say are being "disrespectful." I think there are many in this country (USA) that are frustrated by the current state of human spaceflight and NASA happens to be the focal point for that frustration -- deserved or not. But, disrespectful? OK, maybe Burt Rutan has said some rather unflattering things about NASA, but he is only expressing the frustration that many of us feel. He is also putting his talents and money where his mouth is and actually flying hardware that works. That, sir, deserves more respect than the pejorative "toymaker."<br /><br />I guess I'll have to wait for your monthly visit to Uplink to get that list.<br /><br />BTW, publiusr, I'm one of those libertarians you seem to have little respect for. Frankly, I'm rather fed up with statism.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[spacelifejunkie]

The latest...<br /><br />http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/livewire/travel/vacation_final_frontier/<br /><br />http://www.longislandpress.com/?cp=162&show=article&a_id=8249

 

[publiusr]

Where to begin:<br /><br />"And I say they are NOT toys because they are NOT toys." <br /><br />Thats a good one! I haven't laughed that hard in awhile.R-7 wasn't a toy--SS1 is--whether you like that fact or not. Deal with it.<br /><br /> "We can both play that game."<br /><br />Space isn't a game sir.<br />It's about time you grew up and understood that fact.<br /><br />"With all due respect, NASA is a taxpayer funded agency and the taxpayers have a right to make their opinions known about NASA's course of action. "<br /><br />And being a taxpayer myself--I also have a right to defend NASA and use free speech to make my opinions known about the libertarian frauds who say private industry is the way to go--and want handouts from COTS.<br /><br />Rather like that other oxymoron:<br /><br />"I don't believe in gov't--vote for me." <br /><br />"OK, maybe Burt Rutan has said some rather unflattering things about NASA."<br /><br />He's done more than that. His "Spaceship One Gov't Zero" sign that he held up was classless. Like he placed those GPS sats up there SS1 used.<br /><br />"That, sir, deserves more respect than the pejorative "toymaker." <br /><br />Truth hurts, doesn't it. Let him put something in orbit--then I'll call it a spaceship. Until then I won't.<br /><br />"BTW, publiusr, I'm one of those libertarians you seem to have little respect for. Frankly, I'm rather fed up with statism." <br /><br />That's fine--because I'm fed up with your Ayn Rand Kool-aid. I'm fed up with people posting their little rants on computers that get electricity from TVA, and who drive on the Eisenhower Interstate system to the Beltway to tell us how we 'don't need gov't," before taking those same 'statist' pieces of public infrastructure back to their homes in the 'burbs.<br /><br />I for one haven't forgotten the Santorum Accu-Weather bill, which would have restricted the data the NWS could distribute due to its being 'unfair' to private firms who get their signals from weather satellites and then sell them bac

 

[publiusr]

Until then, let me leave you with this:<br /><br />"Laws are the shackles that make good men free<br />loosing them from the bad man's anarchy."<br /><br />"No law in the Arena," The libertarians say <br />while counting our money in zest<br />Ayn Rand do they read<br />in all of their greed<br />a Democrat being **their**anarchist. <br /><br />They outsource our jobs<br />call unions a mob<br />that is their call and creed.<br />"Where is John Gault --that old sob?"<br />"Why, he's on Lou Dobbs.<br />--John Gault was replaced by Habeeb."<br /><br />So let the bourgeois, in all of their jest<br />do call me a "social creationist"<br />in form, function and deed.<br />Noblesse Oblige, that's what we need.<br />Not another Libertarian Pest.<br /><br />"You see, I don't believe in Government, Ed-<br />So why don't you vote for me instead?"<br />"For President, no, I don't think so;<br />you'd get less votes than Lola Falana would<br />--dead."<br /><br />They that hate the state so, its the states office they seek.<br />And for our votes do they roam.<br />So let's follow the example of their anti-government squeak,<br />And come election day,<br />--let all their voters stay home. <br /><br /><br />

 

[spacelifejunkie]

Can you guys take your hissy fit somewhere else? What does this meaningless conversation have to do with SIG or SPS? Stay on topic. Debating whether 10 billion dollars of potential funding to a private space company will occur or not is light years beyond this bickering.<br /><br />SLJ

 

[nexium]

I agree: Publisher and swampcat are a detraction. A 1/3 g space wheel hotel may be doable with today's materials, but requires moving millions of pounds to space, which is billions of dollars even at $1000 per pound = $2200 per kilogram. Cheap CNT = carbon nano tubes with good specs, could easily halve the price and halve the probability of the wheel flying apart. Neil

 

[spacelifejunkie]

Gene Myers was recently on the Space Show (link below). He has claimed to be fresh from Tokyo where Japan is now serious about making a contribution along with India and China for securing up to $10 billion starting within the next couple of months in order to kickstart SPS. The overall contract for electrical power in the next 10 years will be for $200 billion. This is his "killer ap" that the space community has been looking for. I guess we will keep our eyes peeled for this multi billion dollar announcement in October or November. First launch in 2010.<br /><br />http://www.thespaceshow.com/detail.asp?q=545<br /><br />SLJ<br />

 

[rocketman5000]

Japan has already publicly profess plans for orbital electricity generation.

 

[spacelifejunkie]

Yes, and they will be testing with a 100 kWatt (I think)satellite by 2010. Gene Myers mentioned this on the space show and I've forgotten some details. Japan's test is also mentioned in the latest issue of Scientific American. The cover was about alternative energy. Is SIG and SSP picking up steam or is this more promises and power point space travel from Myers?<br /><br />SLJ

 

[nyarlathotep]

>"Japan has already publicly profess plans for orbital electricity generation."<br /><br />Just not economic orbital electricity generation. Even assuming that your solar arrays have a 20 year (massively optimistic) service life, zero assembly cost, and using Elon Musk's proposed 'BFR' with costs under half that of the Falcon 9, you probably wouldn't break even without a $5/kWh subsidy.<br /><br />And god help you if you have to launch with an H-IIA.

 

[zeldababy]

This company is a joke. They have been "saying" for over 5 years now they were on the verge of getting huge money with investors. My husband worked for them for years out of belief and love of space for FREE with the promise of big money always hanging him on a hook. They are not even worth discussing...BELIVE ME..If not I have a lot of worthless stock I would love to sell you...

 

[spacelifejunkie]

Thank you Zeldababy. A personal account is something is always appreciated. The general concensus is that SIG can blow a lot of smoke. <br /><br /><br />SLJ

 

[publiusr]

I have stock in the company--and a lot of start ups have problems waiting for the other investor to jump.<br /><br />All space start-ups have problems. Gene wants to support HLLVs--not undermine them as the Rutan types do.