<p>Hi everyone,</p><p> In this photo: http://chamorrobible.org/images/photos/gpw-20050129-NASA-GPN-2000-001358-clouds-launch-Space-Shuttle-Columbia-STS-2-Florida-19811112-medium.jpg</p><p> </p><p>We see the plume leading from the shuttle a distinct shade of brown, but at the base of the tower there are two white-ish plumes. Am I correct to assume that the white-ish plumes are steam from the water that they pour on to the pad just before launch ? </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
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<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'><font color="#ff0000">Hi everyone, In this photo: http://chamorrobible.org/images/photos/gpw-20050129-NASA-GPN-2000-001358-clouds-launch-Space-Shuttle-Columbia-STS-2-Florida-19811112-medium.jpgWe see the plume leading from the shuttle a distinct shade of brown, but at the base of the tower there are two white-ish plumes. Am I correct to assume that the white-ish plumes are steam from the water that they pour on to the pad just before launch ? <br />Posted by l3p3r</font></DIV></p><p><strong><font size="2">Hi I3p3r, I understand that to be so. The water dampens out the massive vibrations at ignition, to prevent damage to the pad & the the STS assembly. </font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="2">I'm sure shuttle_guy will give a better & more accurate answer.</font></strong></p><p><strong><font size="2">Andrew Brown.<br /></font></strong></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi I3p3r, I understand that to be so. The water dampens out the massive vibrations at ignition, to prevent damage to the pad & the the STS assembly. I'm sure shuttle_guy will give a better & more accurate answer.Andrew Brown. <br />Posted by 3488</DIV></p><p>There is a water spray system that is designed to dampen acoustics at the pad generated from the plum interacting with the structute. But also the plume from the solids is white. I am not sure where the sort of brownish tinge in the photo comes from but solid rocket plums are generally rather white. What is in the plume is primarily aluminum oxide, water, and hydrogen chloride (the plume is pretty acidic).<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
<p><font color="#800080">Hi everyone, In this photo: http://chamorrobible.org/images/pho...-Columbia-STS-2-Florida-19811112-medium.jpgWesee the plume leading from the shuttle a distinct shade of brown, but at the base of the tower there are two white-ish plumes. Am I correct to assume that the white-ish plumes are steam from the water that they pour on to the pad just before launch ? Posted by l3p3r</font></p><p>Some of that is from the water deluge but the bulk of it is from the shuttle main engines which produce steam from the reaction of burning liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi everyone, In this photo: http://chamorrobible.org/images/photos/gpw-20050129-NASA-GPN-2000-001358-clouds-launch-Space-Shuttle-Columbia-STS-2-Florida-19811112-medium.jpgWe see the plume leading from the shuttle a distinct shade of brown, but at the base of the tower there are two white-ish plumes. Am I correct to assume that the white-ish plumes are steam from the water that they pour on to the pad just before launch ? <br />Posted by l3p3r</DIV></p><p> </p><p>Yes you are correct.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi I3p3r, I understand that to be so. The water dampens out the massive vibrations at ignition, to prevent damage to the pad & the the STS assembly. I'm sure shuttle_guy will give a better & more accurate answer.Andrew Brown. <br />Posted by 3488</DIV></p><p> </p><p>The water spray over the pad and the water bags in the exhaust holes of the launcher base reduce the magnitude of the sound wave produced by the SRB and SSME exhaust. This reduces the force of the soind wave as it bounces off the launcher base and hits the vehicle. This sound wave nearly caused structural damage to the vehicle on STS-1.</p><p> </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi everyone, In this photo: see the plume leading from the shuttle a distinct shade of brown, but at the base of the tower there are two white-ish plumes. Am I correct to assume that the white-ish plumes are steam from the water that they pour on to the pad just before launch ? Posted by l3p3rSome of that is from the water deluge but the bulk of it is from the shuttle main engines which produce steam from the reaction of burning liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen. <br />Posted by qso1</DIV></p><p>I disagree, the white plume at the base is mainly water spray being vaporized by the SSME exhaust the water vapor then quickly condenses into the white steam. Certainly the SSME exhaust does contribute to the white cloud however that is not the main contributer.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> We see the plume leading from the shuttle a distinct shade of brown, but at the base of the tower there are two white-ish plumes. Am I correct to assume that the white-ish plumes are steam from the water that they pour on to the pad just before launch ? <br /> Posted by l3p3r</DIV><br /></p><p>Correct; those are steam, as pointed out by others.</p><p>The plume from the engines is actually white as well, as you can see by looking at the base of the plume after the vehicle has ascended a fair ways. It's only "brownish" near the vehicle, and I think this is actually an optical illusion. The very topmost bit is very bright, and glowing somewhat yellow. This makes the top of the plume appear yellowish or brownish on video, even though it's really white. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em> -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Correct; those are steam, as pointed out by others.The plume from the engines is actually white as well, as you can see by looking at the base of the plume after the vehicle has ascended a fair ways. It's only "brownish" near the vehicle, and I think this is actually an optical illusion. The very topmost bit is very bright, and glowing somewhat yellow. This makes the top of the plume appear yellowish or brownish on video, even though it's really white. <br />Posted by CalliArcale</DIV></p><p>Right. The plume from the solids, near the exhaust plane of the nozzle contains quite a bit of white hot aluminum oxide that is very luminous, and cools down fairly rapidly as the plume gasses expand aft of the nozzle. The light from those particles is reflected from the remainder of the plume and may account for some redish light near the vehicle. But once radiation from the plume has diminished the basic color of the plume is white. Hydrogen chloride, formed due to the ammonium perchlorate oxidizer, in the exhaust tends to form nucleation sites for condensation of water vapor, creating a vapor trail.</p><p>Some tactical missiles, in order to minimize a visible trail, eliminate both metals and ammonium perchlorate from the propellant formulation. Such formulations are called "min smoke" propellants. They are used to both to make the source of a rocket launch less detectable and to make it more difficult for aircraft to detect the missile and take evasive action. <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There is a water spray system that is designed to dampen acoustics at the pad generated from the plum interacting with the structute. But also the plume from the solids is white. I am not sure where the sort of brownish tinge in the photo comes from but solid rocket plums are generally rather white. What is in the plume is primarily aluminum oxide, water, and hydrogen chloride (the plume is pretty acidic). <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>Water, water everywhere, and not a drop to drink. 
</p><p>Thanks for the chemistry information. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>
</p><p>Thanks for the chemistry information. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div><p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Right. The plume from the solids, near the exhaust plane of the nozzle contains quite a bit of white hot aluminum oxide that is very luminous, and cools down fairly rapidly as the plume gasses expand aft of the nozzle. The light from those particles is reflected from the remainder of the plume and may account for some redish light near the vehicle. But once radiation from the plume has diminished the basic color of the plume is white. Hydrogen chloride, formed due to the ammonium perchlorate oxidizer, in the exhaust tends to form nucleation sites for condensation of water vapor, creating a vapor trail.Some tactical missiles, in order to minimize a visible trail, eliminate both metals and ammonium perchlorate from the propellant formulation. Such formulations are called "min smoke" propellants. They are used to both to make the source of a rocket launch less detectable and to make it more difficult for aircraft to detect the missile and take evasive action. <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p> People sometimes forget that the HTPB "binder" is itself a non-negligible fuel component.</p><p>Wayne<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> People sometimes forget that the HTPB "binder" is itself a non-negligible fuel component.Wayne <br />Posted by drwayne</DIV></p><p>The shuttle does not use HTPB (hydrdoxy terminated polybutadiene). It uses an older technology, PBAN (polybutadiene acrylonitrile). But in either case those are considered inert binders. They do contribute to ISP, but so does that portion of the insulator that is consumed. </p><p>HTPB provides higher ISP and is more commonly used for space launchers. It has lower viscosity and is a bit easier to mix. PBAN is less sensitive to degradation of mechanical properties from exposure to moisture.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The shuttle does not use HTPB (hydrdoxy terminated polybutadiene). It uses an older technology, PBAN (polybutadiene acrylonitrile). But in either case those are considered inert binders. They do contribute to ISP, but so does that portion of the insulator that is consumed. HTPB provides higher ISP and is more commonly used for space launchers. It has lower viscosity and is a bit easier to mix. PBAN is less sensitive to degradation of mechanical properties from exposure to moisture. <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>I meant to type "a" or "an" rather than "the", but my mis-statement got some cool information none-the-less. </p><p>Is there some iron-oxide in the shuttle's SRB mix somewhere? Deliberate I mean. I have a (forgive the pun) rusty memory with respect to the shuttle's mix.</p><p>Wayne</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
</p><p>Is there some iron-oxide in the shuttle's SRB mix somewhere? Deliberate I mean. I have a (forgive the pun) rusty memory with respect to the shuttle's mix.</p><p>Wayne</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div><p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I meant to type "a" or "an" rather than "the", but my mis-statement got some cool information none-the-less. Is there some iron-oxide in the shuttle's SRB mix somewhere? Deliberate I mean. I have a (forgive the pun) rusty memory with respect to the shuttle's mix.Wayne <br />Posted by drwayne</DIV></p><p>Did my homework - yes</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
Is there some iron-oxide in the shuttle's SRB mix somewhere? Deliberate I mean. I have a (forgive the pun) rusty memory with respect to the shuttle's mix.Wayne <br />Posted by drwayne</DIV></p><p>Did my homework - yes</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div><p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I meant to type "a" or "an" rather than "the", but my mis-statement got some cool information none-the-less. Is there some iron-oxide in the shuttle's SRB mix somewhere? Deliberate I mean. I have a (forgive the pun) rusty memory with respect to the shuttle's mix.Wayne <br />Posted by drwayne</DIV></p><p>I don't recall. There may be. Iron oxide in small amounts is sometimes used as a burn rate catalyst.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
Is there some iron-oxide in the shuttle's SRB mix somewhere? Deliberate I mean. I have a (forgive the pun) rusty memory with respect to the shuttle's mix.Wayne <br />Posted by drwayne</DIV></p><p>I don't recall. There may be. Iron oxide in small amounts is sometimes used as a burn rate catalyst.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div><p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Did my homework - yes <br />Posted by drwayne</DIV><br /> </p><p>If you did your homework using sources from your work, you are probably OK. It you looked at internet sites, be careful. They are not totally accurate. The ISP numbers in particular are misleading, unless you carefully read between the lines. Formulation details are not available on line, to the best of my knowledge.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
<p><font color="#800080">I disagree, the white plume at the base is mainly water spray being vaporized by the SSME exhaust the water vapor then quickly condenses into the white steam. Certainly the SSME exhaust does contribute to the white cloud however that is not the main contributer. Posted by shuttle_guy</font></p><p>I got it backwards. The main engine steam plume would only be at one side of the pad while steam from the suppression water would be pretty much all around. Thanks for clearing that up. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> If you did your homework using sources from your work, you are probably OK. It you looked at internet sites, be careful. They are not totally accurate. The ISP numbers in particular are misleading, unless you carefully read between the lines. Formulation details are not available on line, to the best of my knowledge. <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>I know what you mean sir - ISP numbers in particular, without the conditions and assumptions are all over the map and impossible to take at face value.</p><p>Wayne<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I know what you mean sir - ISP numbers in particular, without the conditions and assumptions are all over the map and impossible to take at face value.Wayne <br />Posted by drwayne</DIV></p><p>With few exceptions, accurate useful ISP figures are classified or proprietary.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi everyone, In this photo: http://chamorrobible.org/images/photos/gpw-20050129-NASA-GPN-2000-001358-clouds-launch-Space-Shuttle-Columbia-STS-2-Florida-19811112-medium.jpgWe see the plume leading from the shuttle a distinct shade of brown, but at the base of the tower there are two white-ish plumes. Am I correct to assume that the white-ish plumes are steam from the water that they pour on to the pad just before launch ? <br />Posted by l3p3r</DIV><br /><br />Your image has been removed? Still have it per chance? I'm curious to what everyone was looking for.</p><p> </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><br /><img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /></p> </div>
<p>Thanks for the responses everyone! </p><p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Your image has been removed? Still have it per chance? I'm curious to what everyone was looking for. <br /> Posted by bearack</DIV></p><p>Here it is </p><p>http://chamorrobible.org/images/photos/gpw-20050129-NASA-GPN-2000-001358-clouds-launch-Space-Shuttle-Columbia-STS-2-Florida-19811112-medium.jpg<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
</p><p>http://chamorrobible.org/images/photos/gpw-20050129-NASA-GPN-2000-001358-clouds-launch-Space-Shuttle-Columbia-STS-2-Florida-19811112-medium.jpg<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div><p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Right. The plume from the solids, near the exhaust plane of the nozzle contains quite a bit of white hot aluminum oxide that is very luminous, and cools down fairly rapidly as the plume gasses expand aft of the nozzle. The light from those particles is reflected from the remainder of the plume and may account for some redish light near the vehicle. But once radiation from the plume has diminished the basic color of the plume is white. Hydrogen chloride, formed due to the ammonium perchlorate oxidizer, in the exhaust tends to form nucleation sites for condensation of water vapor, creating a vapor trail.Some tactical missiles, in order to minimize a visible trail, eliminate both metals and ammonium perchlorate from the propellant formulation. Such formulations are called "min smoke" propellants. They are used to both to make the source of a rocket launch less detectable and to make it more difficult for aircraft to detect the missile and take evasive action. <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>Thank you !! The mystery is solved !</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
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