Stuck Boeing Starliner astronauts will return home on a SpaceX Dragon in 2025, NASA says

[Admin]

NASA decided Saturday (Aug. 24) to return its two Boeing Starliner astronaut to Earth in February 2025 and their Starliner capsule empty over thruster concerns.

Stuck Boeing Starliner astronauts will return home on a SpaceX Dragon in 2025, NASA says : Read more

 

[Viking]

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.

 

[Viking]

NASA decided Saturday (Aug. 24) to return its two Boeing Starliner astronaut to Earth in February 2025 and their Starliner capsule empty over thruster concerns.

Stuck Boeing Starliner astronauts will return home on a SpaceX Dragon in 2025, NASA says : Read more

Three strikes and you are out.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

The pressure is still on Boeing to show that it can get the craft down safely. If it has some sort of mishap, I don't think they are going to be able to "sell" the idea that it just was due to NASA making them do reprogramming for descent while the StarLiner was already in space.

Even if StarLiner makes a flawless return, I would expect NASA to demand another Crewed Flight Test before giving the OK for StarLiner to carry routine crew missions. Boeing does stand to make some money if it can get their capsule approved for the contracted 6 missions. But, it is already in a financial loss for the development process, so it may not be able to net a profit from this point, anyway.

And, that was the last Atlas 5 rocket that was available to launch StarLiner. Now they need to use the ULA Vulcan rocket, which is also not on schedule for its development, but seems "close".

I would not be surprised to see Boeing opt out of completing the StarLiner project, even if they have a flawless reentry and landing.

 

[Viking]

Hope the Boeing gets the bill for this. What happens if Starliner bumps ISS.

 

[trailrider]

Interesting the reference to Challenger and Columbia disasters and the decisions to "go" regardless. About time NASA is erring on the side of caution. While Starliner is also keyed to Vulcan's development and qualification, I wonder if one of the remaining Atlas V's (IIRC there are still 14 actually available for other payloads) might be utilized.

OTOH, one wonders if significant redesign of the Starliner won't be necessary before attempting another "crew test flight". Why Boeing designed the thruster "dog house" that isn't reusable after each flight like the Dragon, I can't understand.

We do need an alternative to Dragon, just to be on the safe side, but if Boeing opts out of Starliner, who could come up with another spacecraft in a reasonable period of time and money? In other words, I think we are stuck with Boeing, until, perhaps, the Spaceship is operational.

 

[jan.wolitzky]

According to Ars Technica, "the current flight software on board Starliner cannot perform an automated undocking from the space station and entry into Earth’s atmosphere". Apparently, that code, which obviously was part of the uncrewed Orbital Flight Test 2 mission in May, 2022, was deleted before the launch of the current crewed Starliner. The process to update the software on Starliner is described as "non-trivial" and "significant," and will take up to four weeks.

Once the Starliner departs the ISS uncrewed in early September, and before the arrival of SpaceX Crew-9, there will be nine crew members on ISS (12 between the arrival of Soyuz MS-26 and the departure of Soyuz MS-25). A Soyuz capsule can carry three crew. Crew Dragon is designed to carry seven crew, but has only ever carried up to four. Unless the Crew Dragon currently at the ISS launched with two extra seats, in the event of an emergency there will be no way to evacuate the two extra crew once Starliner is de-orbited. There have been numerous instances when, faced with the risk of a collision with space junk, e.g., the ISS crew have been ordered into their return capsules for safety. What will happen if such an incident arises in September?

 

[Unclear Engineer]

I would nomimate Sierra Space's "DreamChaser" capsule, which is currently being developed as cargo-only, but that was a NASA decision a while back. It is deigned to land on regular runways, which would be a major reusability plus.

Unfortunately, it currently is tied to the ULA Vulcan or Blue Origin's New Glen launch vehicles, but those should be available by the time a crewed version of DreamChaser is ready to test.

From what I have read, the cargo version of DreamChaser launches with a shroud, and that would not be allowed for a crewed vehicle because it would interfere with launch abort safety systems, at least as it and they are currently designed. So, there would be some major development needed.

 

[trailrider]

According to Ars Technica, "the current flight software on board Starliner cannot perform an automated undocking from the space station and entry into Earth’s atmosphere". Apparently, that code, which obviously was part of the uncrewed Orbital Flight Test 2 mission in May, 2022, was deleted before the launch of the current crewed Starliner. The process to update the software on Starliner is described as "non-trivial" and "significant," and will take up to four weeks.

Once the Starliner departs the ISS uncrewed in early September, and before the arrival of SpaceX Crew-9, there will be nine crew members on ISS (12 between the arrival of Soyuz MS-26 and the departure of Soyuz MS-25). A Soyuz capsule can carry three crew. Crew Dragon is designed to carry seven crew, but has only ever carried up to four. Unless the Crew Dragon currently at the ISS launched with two extra seats, in the event of an emergency there will be no way to evacuate the two extra crew once Starliner is de-orbited. There have been numerous instances when, faced with the risk of a collision with space junk, e.g., the ISS crew have been ordered into their return capsules for safety. What will happen if such an incident arises in September?

In an emergency, Crew-8 Dragon could be kluged to hold six astronauts. It probably would prove not the ideal if they had to deorbit that way, but probably could be done. Crew-9 will launch after undocking of the unmanned Starliner, but with two crew on board, and ballast and SpaceX space suits on board. Butch and Suni will then return on Crew-9 sometime next year.

 

[jan.wolitzky]

In an emergency, Crew-8 Dragon could be kluged to hold six astronauts.

Do you have a reference for this? Even without the extra seats on board?

 

[Astro]

The pressure is still on Boeing to show that it can get the craft down safely. If it has some sort of mishap, I don't think they are going to be able to "sell" the idea that it just was due to NASA making them do reprogramming for descent while the StarLiner was already in space.

Even if StarLiner makes a flawless return, I would expect NASA to demand another Crewed Flight Test before giving the OK for StarLiner to carry routine crew missions. Boeing does stand to make some money if it can get their capsule approved for the contracted 6 missions. But, it is already in a financial loss for the development process, so it may not be able to net a profit from this point, anyway.

And, that was the last Atlas 5 rocket that was available to launch StarLiner. Now they need to use the ULA Vulcan rocket, which is also not on schedule for its development, but seems "close".

I would not be surprised to see Boeing opt out of completing the StarLiner project, even if they have a flawless reentry and landing.

Who knows, maybe we will ask the Russians for help once again.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

Who knows, maybe we will ask the Russians for help once again.

That seems really unlikely, unless geopolitical conditions change profoundly. Or SpaceX has a sudden, unexpected demise. At present, Russia might not even be willing to help the U.S., even if it would be sort of a political coup, at home and internationally.

 

[mcswell]

And, that was the last Atlas 5 rocket that was available to launch StarLiner. Now they need to use the ULA Vulcan rocket, which is also not on schedule for its development, but seems "close".

No, there are 17 Atlas 5s still laying around, and six of them are designated for future Starline missions. I don't know whether any of the others could be re-assigned to Starliner if need be.

 

[Unclear Engineer]

You are correct, I misremembered a previous Space.com article (https://www.space.com/atlas-v-final-national-security-launch-ussf-51- ) that talks about the last Atlas 5 launch of a National Security payload. It says that there are 15 more Atlas 5 launches, some for StarLiner. It is the Space Force that is now switching to Vulcan.

But, StarLiner was designed to also use Vulcan launch vehicles. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Starliner , which says:
"Starliner was designed to be compatible with multiple launch vehicles, including the Atlas V, Delta IV, Falcon 9, and Vulcan Centaur. For the three orbital test flights and six operational missions, Starliner is expected to fly atop the Atlas V. However, United Launch Alliance, the operator of the Atlas V, ceased production of the rocket in 2024 after producing vehicles for all remaining contracted launches. The vehicles have been allocated to customers, including the six needed for the remaining Starliner flights. The Starliner faces an uncertain future after that. Delta IV is retired and no more are available, the Falcon 9 is owned by manned launch competitor SpaceX, and the Vulcan Centaur has not yet been human-rated, testing Boeing would have to pay for."

So, in terms of Boeing's ability to use StarLiner for more than 6 paid launches, it is "going to need a bigger rocket".