Surprises from the Edge of the Solar System

[telfrow]

<i> Almost every day, the great antennas of NASA's Deep Space Network turn to a blank patch of sky in the constellation Ophiuchus. Pointing at nothing, or so it seems, they invariably pick up a signal, faint but full of intelligence. The source is beyond Neptune, beyond Pluto, on the verge of the stars themselves.<br /><br />It's Voyager 1. The spacecraft left Earth in 1977 on a mission to visit Jupiter and Saturn. Almost 30 years later, with the gas giants long ago seen and done, Voyager 1 is still going and encountering some strange things.<br /><br />"We've entered a totally new region of space," says Ed Stone, Voyager project scientist and the former director of JPL. "And the spacecraft is beaming back surprising new information." <br />------<br />The surprises:<br /><br /><b>Magnetic Potholes:</b> Every now and then, Voyager 1 sails through a "magnetic pothole" where the magnetic field of the heliosheath almost vanishes, dropping from a typical value of 0.1 nanoTesla (nT) to 0.01 nT or less. There are also "magnetic speed bumps" where the field strength jumps to twice normal, from 0.1 nT to 0.2 nT. These speed bumps and potholes are an unexpected form of turbulence. What role do they play in scattering cosmic rays? "This is under investigation," says Stone.<br /><br /><b>Sluggish solar wind:</b> The solar wind in the heliosheath is slower than anyone expected. "The solar wind is supposed to slow down out there, just as the water in your sink slowed down to make the 'sluggish ring,'" says Stone, "but not this slow." Before Voyager 1 arrived, computer models predicted a wind speed of 200,000 to 300,000 mph. Voyager 1 measured only about 34,000 mph. "This means our computer models need to be refined."<br /><br /><b>Anomalous Cosmic Rays:</b> "This one takes a little explaining," he says. "While the heliosheath protects us from deep-space cosmic rays, at the same time it is busy producing some cosmic rays of its own. A shock wave at the inner boundary of the heliosheath impar</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

Very interesting. Kind of makes you realize just how amazing our universe gets...and how much we dont know. Is this typical of all solar systems? Is the heliosphere thinner in some solar systems or larger? Does the galaxy itself have something like this? "Protecting" itself from other galaxies cosmic rays? ...I could go on and on. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

Another thing of note. We as humans base so much of our theories on what is observable either thru the eye or thru a telescope. <br /><br />Could any of this affect how we see someting? ie could the heliosphere being bigger then we originally thought affect any of the telescopes in orbit around the Earth? ie thermal, gamma radiation etc etc? If so then everything we have observed thru any of these mechanisims could/may be totally wrong. Or at least off by a certain percentage? After all if we're not getting as much cosmic rays as we thought then.....<br /><br />Your thoughts? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

Do you ever get tired of yourself not reading what was said and assumeing what was actually said?<br /><br />I basically asked if the heliosphere being bigger then what we thought affect how our telesopes see things beyond our solar system. I used thermal and gamma radiation for examples...these particles are affected by various things you know and could very well skew results. Particularly if something is found to be different than what we once thought of it as. Such as the Heliosphere. Just because we have these instruments here on Earth does not mean that they can accurately detect what is beyond our solar system...since they are not out there. All that they can do is give us an "idea" which could be skewed because of something that we didnt know about. Such as the Heliosphere not produceing the anomalous cosmic rays. <br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Researchers expected Voyager 1 to encounter the greatest number of anomalous cosmic rays at the inner boundary of the heliosheath "because that's where we thought anomalous cosmic rays were produced." Surprise: Voyager crossed the boundary in August 2005 and there was no spike in cosmic rays. Only now, 300 million miles later, is the intensity beginning to grow. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />You might want to note that I was only talking about beyond our solar system...not whats within it or whats here on Earth.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Your intent here is to create doubt based upon wild speculations about things, while at the same tiem making no real statements which in any way expand toour knowledge in any real, detectable way.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />*insert sarcasm here* It's amazing that you know what my intents are!!! Seriously, you should stop reading things into peoples posts. <br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>When you have a real objection, which clearly and specifically asks a question, which in</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Good point,Voyager 1 is the ET.

 

[danieloneil01]

What fuel is the Voyager using and how much longer should it last? <br /><br />How much further could it go and the remaining fuel? <br /><br />Is it possible to reach the nearest galaxy?

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><br />Could any of this affect how we see someting? ie could the heliosphere being bigger then we originally thought affect any of the telescopes in orbit around the Earth? ie thermal, gamma radiation etc etc? If so then everything we have observed thru any of these mechanisims could/may be totally wrong. Or at least off by a certain percentage? After all if we're not getting as much cosmic rays as we thought then.....<br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />It's a good question, and not one which can be conclusively answered. The Voyagers are heading into space which has never been directly studied before, so it is virtually certain that they'll turn up surprises. (That's what always happens when you go where no one has gone before, which is of course the very reason they're going there. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> )<br /><br />I'm not a scientist, so I can't speculate very knowledgeably about this. Take my opinions on this with a grain of salt, therefore. I suspect that this would predominantly affect gamma ray observations (stuff like Swift). I don't think it would affect thermal or visible light very much; if it did, it'd probably be less than the sensitivity of our instruments can detect anyway. (Below the margin of error, in other words.)<br /><br />Of course, if it does have an affect, it must be either a very small (undetectable) one, or it must be pretty uniform, at least when observed from Earth. Otherwise we should notice odd trends in the data. If we do start to see weird trends in the data that could only be explained by heliosheath interference, that might actually be a good thing -- it would actually give us a means of studying the heliosheath from here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

Sweet thanks for answering CalliArcale <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

First off, danieloneil01, here's the link to the official website of my favorite space probe: Voyager<br /><br /><b>What fuel is the Voyager using and how much longer should it last?</b><br /><br />Both Voyagers (they're virtually identical in construction) use a form of hydrazine, a popular hypergolic propellant. "Hypergolic" means it doesn't require a spark to ignite it. This sounds very dangerous, and it is, but the upshot is that the thrusters don't have to be very complicated, which means they're less failure prone. Hydrazine is also very storable, so despite the fact that it's not the most efficient fuel (masswise), it's used on almost every spacecraft because it doesn't boil off like hydrogen or even kerosene.<br /><br />This propellant is used only for fine-tuning its attitude (orientation). Otherwise the spacecraft are just coasting off into the depths of space.<br /><br /><b>How much further could it go and the remaining fuel?</b><br /><br />They will continue to coast forever, unless they run into something. The propellant isn't needed to keep them going. Right now, it just helps them point their antennas at Earth. Earlier in the mission, it was used to fine-tune their aim at the next target. According to the latest mission data (from July 14), Voyager 1 has 28.27 kg of propellant left, and Voyager 2 has 30.07 kg. Voyager 1 is consuming an average of 6.18 g/week, and Voyager 2 is consuming an average of 8.63 g/week. (The difference probably has to do with which spacecraft had to do more maneuvering during the period the data was obtained, and may not reflect long-term consumption.)<br /><br />Interestingly, this is not the limiting factor for Voyager operations. Both vehicles generate electrical power by a thermocouple which converts the heat of naturally decaying plutonium into electricity. Plutonium stays hot for an extremely long time, but unfortunately the thermocouples have a shorter lifespan. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[robnissen]

I believe they are both scheduled to run out of electricity in about 2020 (I think the electricity comes from radioactive decay). I don't know about another galaxy, but one of the Voyagers will be passing near another star in about 40,000 years. I imagine to leave the galaxy would take millions or billions of years.

 

[MeteorWayne]

To know that much, it must be a favorite.<br /><br />Thanks for all the detailed info. There are only so many hours in the day, so it's great to have someone who watches them for us! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[berna]

The contact with the Voyagers will eventually be lost, however they still will carry the messages in the gold disk telling other races about us including sunds and pictures.<br />It also has engraved our position in the galaxy indicated as the distance from different pulsars. The pulsars are identified by the frequency (i.e. rotation speed). As voyager is likely to be found by alien space farers (maybe turists) if ever, many million years from now, my question is will this information be valid? as pulsars slow down and our sun drifts to other locations.<br />Can we expect a visit from ET invited by a Voyager or a Pioneer?

 

[dragon04]

<font color="yellow">Can we expect a visit from ET invited by a Voyager or a Pioneer?</font><br /><br />Very tiny needles in a very big haystack. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[search]

stevehw33<br /><br />"Clearly never having taken any kind of science lab, nor considered how silly this comment looks. There are many people who have sat in foreign language classes for a year or two and then promptly forgot almost everything they knew of German or French, for example." <br /><br />Silly? What a great scientific example you came up with. I hope your German and French are better than your Latin...<br /><br />You are the kind of person that focus on trying to deminish others comments instead of focusing on constructing on any little good they may contain. <br /><br />You also spend time talking about how superficial others comments are instead of presenting a objective, scientific one. That just proves how frail your remarks are.<br /><br />Try to see the good in others posts and be positive about them and you will see how more constructive you can be. Its never too late to change...and you really need to.

 

[danieloneil01]

Thank you Calli.. That's great info... I know it's not much but considering when it was launched and what it's done is a great accomplishment... I just wished they could get a car to do .0001% mileage of that without breaking down... I would love to see more stuff like this happen but go to other great location in our Solar System and snap High Defintion Pictures very close to the surface of these hot spots IE Jupiter, Mars, Titan and Venus... I really could never get enough photos from other planets..

 

[vandivx]

"I really could never get enough photos from other planets.."<br /><br />you know, something like these probes hurtling at dazling speeds into endless empty space is more impresive to my imagination than any pictures from other planets, when I ponder those figures about their travel as we just got, I get awed by the huge scale of things out there and I start imagining what it implies what is possible somewhere out there, another civilizations that one day millions of years from now will find the coasting dead probes and will experience what we likely will not as I don't think we will in our lifetimes and more catch any such ET probe passing by<br /><br />"CalliArcale: They will continue to coast forever, unless they run into something. The propellant isn't needed to keep them going."<br /><br />thx for great feed to imagination, however I have to shower on the parade somewhat, the probes won't coast indefinitely and by that I don't mean they will hit some bodies out there or suffer some friction from space particles or get snared by some ETs, they will just coast to a halt one day in the middle of clear space after billions of years of ever slower travel, forcing us to reconsider one of our basic laws of physic we held to for centuries and it will happen because of that Pioneer acceleration anomaly that nobody understands as yet, by then we won't be even dust anymore, we will be long recycled into other humans here on Earth provided life will survive here that long<br /><br />vanDivX <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Kalstang]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I really could never get enough photos from other planets.. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />In which case you will prolly love this site....I do, every day they add a new pic. Granted its not ALL pics of planets but they do have some amazeing pics in here. Its oldest pic is dated June 16, 1995.<br /><br /> NASA - Astronomy Picture of the Day Archive <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#ffff00"><p><font color="#3366ff">I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer.</font> <br /><font color="#ff0000">"Imagination is more important then Knowledge" ~Albert Einstien~</font> <br /><font color="#cc99ff">Guns dont kill people. People kill people</font>.</p></font><p><font color="#ff6600">Solar System</font></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

It may give us concrete data of heliopuse.Voyager 1 is scintillating.But voyager has delivered more concrete results.Much of what we talk of astronomy comes from voyager2.

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>thx for great feed to imagination, however I have to shower on the parade somewhat, the probes won't coast indefinitely and by that I don't mean they will hit some bodies out there or suffer some friction from space particles or get snared by some ETs, they will just coast to a halt one day in the middle of clear space after billions of years of ever slower travel, forcing us to reconsider one of our basic laws of physic we held to for centuries and it will happen because of that Pioneer acceleration anomaly that nobody understands as yet, by then we won't be even dust anymore, we will be long recycled into other humans here on Earth provided life will survive here that long <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />The Pioneer Effect is not sufficiently well understood to make such a claim. In fact, it has not even been proven to exist. The effect is extremely small, so small that there is a significant chance that it is actually experimental error. There is no reason to assume from the data that the Voyagers will slow down until they stop. In fact, the data, even if one assumes it is all correct, doesn't even suggest a possibility of that.<br /><br />The effect is in fact so small that it is not possible to observe it in the Voyager telemetry! Only Pioneers 10 and 11 could show the effect, and that because they were spin-stablized (a rare thing for deep space probes, as it tends to limit many of their scientific capabilities). I believe it was actually only observed in Pioneer 10 data; 11 having lost contact with Earth several years earlier. But I could be wrong about that. I haven't followed Pioneer as closely as Voyager.<br /><br />The Voyager spacecraft are not decelerating. They are actually accelerating. Contrary to what many seem to think, the Pioneer Effect does not suggest they should decelerate. It simply predicts that they will not accelerate as fast as you'd expect from purely Newtonian physics. Pion <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[vandivx]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The Pioneer Effect is not sufficiently well understood to make such a claim. In fact, it has not even been proven to exist. The effect is extremely small, so small that there is a significant chance that it is actually experimental error.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />all I can say is that small, even 'extremely small' discrepancies in some data have proven in the past history of physics/astronomy harbingers of far reaching revolutions in science that be<br /><br />yes, it is not 'sufficiently well understood' and I wouldn't say what I did if I was in the same boat as everybody else, perhaps I shouldn't have said 'nobody understands' because I happen to have an idea that suggests an effect of this kind in moving bodies and the Pioneer probe is the first object that we have that moves relatively fast and for a long enough time and without undue disturbance to mask the effect (that spin stabilization) - what it lacks in speed it makes up with longevity of travel which gives the effect the chance to accumulate to show up and disturb our complacent scientists <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br />we were lucky somebody examined the data closely and didn't dismiss the small discrepancy<br /><br />in the absence of predicting theory scientists can view this effect as a one time occurence with strange effect which is so small that it could still very well turn out to be just an error given that the rest of probes and countless other bodies in heavens and on Earth move apprently without such error like a perfect clockwork that science can predict with accuracy, that is except for this one little pesky probe that refuses to fit our theories<br /> <br />what might have happened here is that we have an experimental finding of an evidence of something before we have a theory predicting it, that's like if we should have found experimentally some special relativistic effect before we had special relativity theory (there was actuall <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>