Survival on earth during red giant phase

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newtonian

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I hope this thread will be a borderline science fiction - science fact thread whereby science fiction can become science fact.<br /><br />In other words, plausible models please.<br /><br />Assume our earth will be distant enough from our sun at this phase to avoid spiraling into the sun - since that would not be survivable.<br /><br />You may include, however, models which change the expected future through intervention - such as by changing the orbit of Nemesis such that it merges with our sun to rejuvenate it for a more distant in time entry into red giant phase or such that it perturbs the sun's mass enough to cause mixing and again delay the sun's entry into red giant phase - with a corresponding more distant earth orbit at this critical point due to lower solar mass at this point due to these variant model parameters.<br /><br />Feel free to include actual observational evidence for the future of earth's solar orbit.<br /><br />I will get you all started:<br /><br />At red giant phase earth will certainly be heated up. However, there are many methods and technologies that would allow survival on earth during this phase.<br /><br />I will introduce some possible ways - feel free to disprove them or confirm them as plausible:<br /><br />1. Make earth more reflective - so that solar radiation is deflected away from earth. Many methods - remember we have billions of years to do this.<br /><br />2. Insulate earth. Many methods - including the obvious thermos bottle method. <br /><br />2A. One method - cover most of earth with double-pained insulated glass with the outer glass layer heat resistant, and with coolant air circulating under this in a third glass layer. Under this install mirrors, fiber optics and other methods to divert the sunlight to multiple below ground levels to illuminate underground solar greenhouses to convert solar energy into biomass - to be used later for warmth and life during white dwarf phase.<br /><br />OK, I have zillions of other ideas myself. <br />
 
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igorsboss

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By the time Sol reaches the red giant phase, the Andromeda galaxy will be actively colliding with the Milky Way galaxy. This galactic will be so violent that it will probably snuff us right out.<br /><br />I don't expect any remnant of our existence to survive...unless we produce a space seed organism. I envision this organism hosting artificially enhanced DNA, upon which is written some mathematical signature of our intelligent intervention, such as the sequence of prime numbers.
 
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efron_24

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Earth will survive.. It will be further from the sun than now a days.. but way too hot to be !!!<br /><br />Venus and Mercury will not survive..<br /><br />Mars will be warmer and get's it's oceans back, and see them evaporate.<br /><br />Titan will be the place to be.<br /><br />but sadly the Red Giant phase won't last...<br />Ice will return to all worlds including Earth... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>
 
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alienhunter

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What will happend to the sun's gravity when growing to a red giant? If it increases the Earth will get closer to the sun. Not to mention the gravity changes caused by the Andromeda galaxy. The solution is to abondon earth and move to let's say one ore more asteroids that we make hollow and set to spin.
 
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nexium

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I don't think all red giants are the same, so it's possible that Earth's average temperature will only increase by 500 degrees c = 900 degrees f. Much hotter and I see little hope that this century's technology can save any humans. 1 Very hot will destroy the reflectors that are cooling Earth by perhaps 5 degrees c 2 Thermos bottles keep the heat out for weeks at most; the hot period may last a million years. 2a Much the same problem, The supply of cooling air will be gone in much less than a million years. In theory, we can build multi stage refrigeration, which cools 1000 degrees f refrigerent, with 950 degrees f ambient air, in 50 degrees f steps until we get to 90 degrees f, but each step uses lots of energy, and we will have to invent new ways to produce energy, if the ambient is 950 degrees f. Neil
 
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nexium

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According to the gravity formulas, the Sun's gravitational pull on Earth, will increase by less than 1% even if the photo sphere is between Venus and Earth. This because nearly all the mass is about 200 million kilometers away near the center of the sun, which is thus still a good approximation of a point source. The 200 million kilometers is wishful thinkng that Earth will have receeded from the Sun, significantly, by then.<br />If some survive the hot phase, advanced technology will permit the survivers to stay warm by living far below the surface. Perhaps nano technology can make food for the deep Earth dwellers.<br />Some experts think Earth has a 50 - 50 chance of avoiding any serious problems due to the "collision" with Andromedia. This is because both galaxies are 99.9999999999% empty space. Neil
 
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nexium

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Some recent research indicates that CNT is still useful at 2500 degrees c = 4532 degrees f and can stretch to twice its length at these temperatures, which may be hotter than the photosphere of a Red Giant Star, so sun shades in solar synchonous orbit (altitude about 20,000 kilometers) may be able to continue to protect Earth for a million years.<br />I'll guess the gas presure is one milibar in the photosphere of a red giant, so considerable station keeping energy will be needed to avoid orbit decay of the sunshades. Neil
 
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nexium

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Come on guys and galls. Be optimistic. Forget the abandon all hope. We have several billion years to prepare. Neil
 
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dragon04

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<font color="yellow"> 1. Make earth more reflective - so that solar radiation is deflected away from earth. Many methods - remember we have billions of years to do this. </font><br /><br />Reflectivity would not protect our atmosphere from being either blown or cooked off by a swelling Sun.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">2. Insulate earth. Many methods - including the obvious thermos bottle method.</font><br /><br />You would need something akin to aerogel that doesn't transfer heat, and would also withstand temperatures that a star's corona generates. Check this out :<br /><br />http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0301/12coronal/<br /><br />The only method by which Earth could begin to be kept habitable IMO, would be having the ability to adjust Earth's orbit. Above and beyond the natural recession of the Earth's orbit, that is.<br /><br />This in itself could be problematic for other than the obvious reason. How much delta vee, for instance could the planet withstand and not be torn apart?<br /><br />A slow, steady outward push could perhaps work, provided that there was an early enough start made (say in half a billion years as the sun starts to become too hot for Earth to become habitable).<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>
 
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alkalin

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This phase of the sun is a really tough one to predict. The sun could run into a great many icy objects in its travel about the galaxy which provides more hydrogen fuel, so it could take a long time before the scenario happens that you suggest. Sure this idea is wacko, but why not. <br /><br />Try this for wacko, we may find a way of directing icy bodies into the sun for the prevention of it turning into a red giant.
 
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unlearningthemistakes

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does'nt mercury have localized ice on its poles??<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>
 
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unlearningthemistakes

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how about permanent clouding??<br /><br />(ala matrix) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>
 
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dragon04

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<font color="yellow"> how about permanent clouding?? </font><br /><br />Three words.<br /><br />Runaway greenhouse effect. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>
 
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spayss

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Igor:<br /><br />"By the time Sol reaches the red giant phase, the Andromeda galaxy will be actively colliding with the Milky Way galaxy. This galactic will be so violent that it will probably snuff us right out"<br /><br />Not at all. The odds are that no two stars will collide or be all that impacted by such an event. If each galaxy has ony 300 billion stars then they are much too spread out . Our sun will not be impacted by the collision of the galaxies other than a change in orbit as influenced by another mass.
 
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dragon04

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I'd be fairly concerned with the energy release generated by the merger of 2 central black holes, along with the dense masses of stars interacting nearby them.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>
 
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rfoshaug

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One thing is certain. The red giant phase of the sun will not be witnessed by human eyes any more than the lunar landing of 1969 was witnessed by dinosaurs.<br /><br />The sun will become a red giant in what, 2-4 billion years?<br /><br />Human kind has evolved from what was practically apes, via many interim species into present day humans in just a few hundred thousand years.<br /><br />Only 0.065 billion years ago the dinosaurs became extinct. Small mammals could now start to evolve into larger mammals that would sometime in a very distant future become humans.<br /><br />In a billion years there will be no humans. They won't necessarily be extinct, but they will evolve. Evolution has not stopped. Darwinism combined with the technology to control evolution will assure that humans will become more adapted to the environment in which they live, be it a barren Earth after an asteroid strike, space, or a new planet or whatever.<br /><br />If you could be frozen in a cryopod and wake up 10,000 years from now, you'd already then notice that people would look very differently from today, with completely different ideas of what people should look like and the technology to make it so, probably combined with electronical and mechanical body enhancements. 10,000 years is not much Darwin-wise, but DNA alterations and other technologies will speed up the evolution in a direction of being better adapted to the environment we live in.<br /><br />1,000,000 years from now, you wouldn't recognize any beings as humans anymore. A million years ago there were no humans, and in a million years, you wouldn't find any either.<br /><br />If we jump to a point in time 10,000,000 years from now, you certainly would not recognize the world anymore. Humans are truly gone and forgotten as they have evolved into other species.<br /><br />Then we jump another ten million years. Again life has changed so that beings that live in 10,000,000 AD wouldn't recognize any beings if they could sleep in a cryopod and w <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff9900">----------------------------------</font></p><p><font color="#ff9900">My minds have many opinions</font></p> </div>
 
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newtonian

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igorsboss - See Andromeda merger threads, of course.<br /><br />However, note that it is interesting, perhaps more than coincidence, that merging with Andromeda will come roughly at a similar time to our sun's running out of fuel.<br /><br />This may be part of the fine tuning of our earth and local area of universe.<br /><br />Perhaps our sun will be rejuvated by a merger with a brown dwarf at this time - just a thought.<br /><br />Overall, however, collisions and extreme effects will be rare since Andromeda, like Milky Way, is mostly empty space.<br /><br />We need better technology and further deep study to determine exactly where our sun will be compared with various brown dwarfs in Andromeda and Milky Way during the various stages of the upcoming merger.<br /><br />In this thread we could simply explore ways to survive red giant phase - but surviving a brown dwarf merger, or Andromeda merger, etc. - would be a good theme for other threads.<br /><br />Interesting space seed theory - compare various directed panspermia theories - see "Evolution from Space," 1981, by astronomer Fred Hoyle (and Chandra Wickramasinghe).
 
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newtonian

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alokmohan - Is that the model you believe? If so, why? Can you link to this model?<br /><br />Meanwhile, if you consider that to be fact, then why not post on this thread as if it were science fiction?<br /><br />[It = either the model or this thread or both.]
 
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newtonian

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efron_24 - you posted:<br /><br />"Earth will survive.. It will be further from the sun than now a days.. but way too hot to be !!!" <br /><br />I agree. Earth will be further away because our sun will certainly be of lower mass than at present. How much lower depends not only on how much hydrogen is fused to helium by then, as a percentage of mass, but also how much mass is lost due to solar wind (vs. gain by accretion, though this is usually negated by the solar wind.)<br /><br />It is interesting that the models go from too hot (red giant phase) to too cold (white dwarf phase).<br /><br />I propose we store some of that heat within the earth to use later during white dwarf phase.<br /><br />Here is one of my zillions of ideas:<br /><br />Convert most of earth's ocean water to separate hydrogen and oxygen and store for later use for heat (and energy) during white dwarf phase.<br /><br />Needless to say, this conversion should be contained or the hydrogen could be lost from earth's atmosphere.<br /><br />Another of my zillions of ideas: reduce earth's atmosphere slightly so that none excapes - especially reduce the greenhouse effect in order to cool the earth.<br /><br />I am not talking about drastic reduction - just a percentage. Certainly we must not allow earth's atmosphere to become like Venus!!!<br /><br />The latter could be done now, of course, to reduce global warming. One method would be to convert CO2 into biomass for farming and remewable energy (alcohol, etc.), and, of course, food for us.<br /><br />There is no need to let earth become like Venus!<br /><br />BTW - survival on earth during red giant phase would likely be easier than survival on Venus today - but studying this could be helpful in establishing an outpost or at least a permanent probe on Venus' surface. <br /><br />Earth, for example, does not have as much sulfuric acid as Venus.<br /><br />Another of my zillions of ideas: use the increase in energy from red giant phase to change earth's chemistry - on a massiv
 
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newtonian

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allenhunter - The sun's gravity will have decreased by red giant phase due to loss of mass in the interim.<br /><br />Gravity changes by perterbation by an object in Andromeda is currently unpredictable (by humans). Effects will be felt primarily by Milky Way as a whole - hardly felt at all by our solar system unless there is soime unlikely, but perhaps fine tuned (already fine tuned, or intervention later), encounter.<br /><br />There is no need to abandon earth.<br /><br />However, moon is receeding from earth!<br /><br />I like your idea about a hollowed out asteroid - but remember, there is no ozone shield on asteroids, no Van Allen radiation belts, protective magnetic fields, protective atmosphere, etc.<br /><br />Compare the space elevator idea, btw.<br /><br />Earth is already fine tuned for our survival way beyond human ability at this time. Human ability given billions of years and increased technology is another matter, of course!
 
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mooware

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<font color="yellow">However, note that it is interesting, perhaps more than coincidence, that merging with Andromeda will come roughly at a similar time to our sun's running out of fuel</font><br /><br />A coincidence in what way? The sun being rejuvinated via a passing brown dwarf is highly speculative at best. There is no way for us to know what would pass by us, if anything. Regardless of if the Sun could be "brought back to life" Which in itself is higlhly speculative.<br /><br />Would we survive a red giant phase? I think only if we develope the technology to leave the planet and go elsewhere.<br /><br />
 
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mooware

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<font color="yellow">Earth is already fine tuned for our survival way beyond human ability at this time. Human ability given billions of years and increased technology is another matter, of course! </font><br /><br />No, it's the other way around. Life as we understand it arose from conditions that were available.<br /><br />
 
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newtonian

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nexium (Neil) - Excellent posts. I can only respond to the first one now:<br /><br />I agree there is variation among red giants - and I accept your 900 degree increase (average) as a scenario for this thread - though one should consider double that also, etc.<br /><br />What temperature is required for the various ore extractions - aluminum for example?<br /><br />I submit that we will no longer need blast furnaces to manufacture various metals from earths crust - and perhaps later the mantle, etc.<br /><br />Rather, we could use red giant solar energy to convert various ores for metals for construction of my multilevel existence model.<br /><br />I propose further at least 1,000 levels, and an irregular surface with heights and depths greater than that of other planets (like Mars, etc.). This elevation variation will cause the radiation to be of shorter duration during the earth day (remember rotation!) - blocked by structures during much of the day and therefore way lower in degrees of shade in man-made canyons - of course using natural canyons also.<br /><br />We may actually be able to construct high enough to reach a zone of temperature that is comfortable for us (compare elevation temperature change - and remember we will be resisting atmospheric temperature change during the million or so years during entry into red giant phase.<br /><br />Compare temperature changes in earth's atmosphere and also Venus' atmosphere.<br /><br />Your multistage refrigeration idea is excellent!<br /><br />May I embellish with detail?<br /><br />First: energy will be no problem - there will be much more solar energy available! Simply separating water into hydrogen and oxygen - perhaps by relatively effecient solar photolysis rather than the less effecient electrolysis - as a fuel cell energy source for just one of many examples.<br /><br />See fuel cell research and development at present.<br /><br />The hottest stage would be for ore smelting - various ores with various temperatures. Some of these
 
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newtonian

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mooware - Hi!<br /><br />I often count your posts in response to me as a challenge. I love challenges!<br /><br />Yes, I agree a rejuvenating merger with a brown dwarf would be unlikely - to say the least. It would indeed require fine tuning.<br /><br />I think you would prefer considering human intervention rather than Divine intervention - that is good for this thread - it is what I want to concentrate on (for variety).<br /><br />Please see the Scientific American article on "When Star's collide" for some information on brown dwarf rejuvenation of a main sequence star. <br /><br />It might not be beyond human capability to fine tune the course of a brown dwarf in Andromeda or Milky Way for a fine tuned course and trajectory for solar rejuvenation.<br /><br />Remember we are still very far away from Andromeda. A very tiny course change may be all that is necessary - and we would have billions of years to implement it.<br /><br />First, of course, we need to locate a suitable brown dwarf (many different masses are included in brown dwarf clasiification) in either Andromeda or Milky Way.<br /><br />That is for future techonology - again, remember my first post: science fiction becoming science fact.<br /><br />On whether life was fine tuned by earth or earth was fine tuned for life - that is really irrelevant for this thread. The point is that earth is fine tuned for life.<br /><br />Remember, the truth often lies somewhere in between: like both in this case!<br /><br />[Note: geneitic variation (by creation of microevolution - semantics) does allow species to survive changes in environment - but this does have limits - admittedly extremophiles show these limits are much greater than scientists once thought.]<br /><br />I would be glad to discuss that difference in belief with you on another thread.<br /><br />Feel free to start it - as I must get back to Katrina repair here in SE Louisiana!
 
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