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Survival on earth during red giant phase
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MeteorWayne - That is truly amazing!<br /><br />Here I am trying to dream up ways to survive close encounter with 500C, when we are already in close encounter with some 4,000 C!!!!!<br /><br />And my methods are considered god-like to crazyeddie.<br /><br />Yet the far superior way earth has been designed and engineered so that we survive on top of such a hot furnace - hotter than the predicted surface of our sun as a red giant - dwarfs my relatively simply methods I have posted - it constitutes evidence of far superior intelligent design!<br /><br />The recycling of earth's crust by tectonic movements such as subduction is truly an amazing design! Our earth is full of amazing recycling methods, added to by living ecological systems!<br /><br />It also gives me encouragement. Since we are created in God's image - might we actually be able to improve on earth's design or at least equal it in some other ways so that we also survive 500C from above even as we survive 4,000C from below!<br /><br />BTW - yesterday's Science channel program on our earth stated the core is 7,000 degrees! Alas, the narrator (who sounded like Picard on Star Trek, the Next Generation.) did not say on which temperature scale: C, K, F? <br /><br />One more thought - in harmony with crazyeddie's link - earth is actually a spaceship, in effect!<br /><br />Who knows where we may be able to take it or be taken in our very fast travel through space!
The only way we could survive is to build an underground habitat with a giant air conditioner, which can radiate excess heat back onto the (already very) hot surface.<br /><br />Such an air conditioner would be quite inefficient, but possible. For example, imagine a two-stage air conditioner with liquid zinc (bp 907C) in the stage 2 cooling loop. The stage 1 air conditioner is rather standard, and the excess heat is used to heat a closed loop of liq Zn to vapor. A compressor located on the Earth's surface could then be used to compress the Zn(g) to Zn liquid, thus losing the excess heat onto the not-as-hot surface, and loop the Zn liq back into the habitat, where it could absorb more heat from the stage 1 air conditioner.<br /><br />If the surface is even hotter than 907C, I could imagine a 3-stage airconditioner, using liquid Ga as the final refrigerant liquid (bp 2300C).<br /><br />Such an inefficient multi-step cooling cycle might be possible, if we have enough energy to run it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>
You seem to think that if humans exist in 5 billion years, they will look like us. They won't be like us, at least, after 5 billion years of genetic engineering an scientific evolution.<br /><br />I agree with Crazyeddie. Technology can give us a serious blow (haven't it already?). And we can choose to give it up and die when nature wants us too. We most certainly have to change to adapt to a life in outer space. I think this progression is inevitable and I think it will be tough for many people. One has to face it, drastical change is on the doorstep. And the most likely people to benefit from this technology is the ones having the most money.<br /><br />One thing is for certain we won't be alive in 5 billion years, let alone 1 billion years (which I believe is around the time life ends on Earth). It's ridicolous to anticipate human existence. There is myriads of problems we must face first. And I think science itself will relieve a problem or two even in my lifetime. <br /><br />I do not believe that organized religion will disappear in the future. Atheism is popular these days, but I think religion is important and will be important for many people in the future. Religion is not science however! Newtonian must know that there is a lot of forums discussing theology and philosophy on the WWW. There is even a place here, called free space, where he can discuss religion at large. Using the bible as a scientific source is not regarded science, and I must say: IT IS NOT UNAMBIGIUOUS!
silylene - Simply stating what I detailed - there are many methods of air conditioning or heat exchanging - some more effecient than others.<br /><br />Thank you for adding another detailed method.<br /><br />I suspect that nuclear fusion will be harnessed by red giant phase, btw - probably way sooner - like perhaps in 50 years?<br /><br />The energy to run air conditioning could come from solar power.<br /><br />Insulation is also a method, as I have noted. It does not need to stop heat flow, just slow it down. <br /><br />This is, after all, how we survive on top of a very hot core.<br /><br />BTW - exactly how hot is earth's core at its hottest?<br /><br />And how slow is the radiation of the core's heat to the surface of earth?
crazyeddie - On that Free Space thread, I just found out about it from a PM by veritassemper.<br /><br />I agree with six_strings and veritassemper and disagree with you and Yevaud.<br /><br />However, to discuss that here would derail this thread from science - so I will abstain from response.<br /><br />Thank you, though, for alerting me to said thread. I will post on it now that I know about it if it is not locked.<br /><br />I do not agree that it would be easier to populate space than to save life on earth.<br /><br />After all, we have everything we need for survival of red giant phase and it is abundant right in earth's crust - though in 5 billion years we may well be able to tap earth's mantle - perhaps even earth's core!<br /><br />For some 5 billion years we will have everything we need - while going to Mars or Moon or.... involves traveliing to places which are far more dangerous to live.<br /><br />For starters, there is our protective magnetic field and protective ozone layer.<br /><br />Do you have some other planet in mind that has an ozone shield?<br /><br />Please post it if you know about it!!!!!! <br /><br />BTW - I am not anti-space exploration.<br /><br />Rather, I am pro-environment, all for preservation of earth's ecological diversity - biodiversity in short!<br /><br />There is no need to abandon earth to explore space - you can have both!<br /><br />Do you really feel that using superior and increasing technology to preserve earth's environment is a less worthwhile pursuit than population of space?
bump <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#993300"><span class="body"><font size="2" color="#3366ff"><div align="center">. </div><div align="center">Never roll in the mud with a pig. You'll both get dirty & the pig likes it.</div></font></span></font> </div>
I'm not sure why Boris bumped this thread. Living on Earth during the red giant stage depends on how big the Sun gets and the level of technology at the time. We may be less prepared to cope in 5 billion years than we are now or may not even be here. I know the Bible infers that Earth will be the home of the richeous forever, but 5 billion years may be more than forever. Have you checked the earlier scripts from which our Bible was translated? Neil
Newtonian is no longer a member here. I doubt you will get an answer or reply from him. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
...I just read an article that when the red giant faze happens we will go spiriling into space...not towards the sun at all....maybe thats why Scientist have found planets"floating eerily" through space without a host star...guess you could say they've been there and done that (red giant faze)...now creeping around space alone.<br /><br />Could that be a scenerio?
Where did you read that article?<br /><br />Everything I've seen so far suggests our possibly fried cinder will remain in orbit around the sun afterward. <br /><br />BTW, it's phase <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
I believe the only way that could happen is if the Sun suddenly shed an enormous amount of mass. During the red giant phase, the sun will shed quite a bit of mass, but it is such a slow process that our orbit will recede gradually. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>
I know<i>***Intentional Bypassing of the Profanity Filter Deleted***</i>...I have a helluva cold , feeling like crap, but I haven't been here inawhile...so I just took a chance and typed a quick note. Actually I spelled Phase and spiraling wrong!!..oh well, didn't take the time to check my errors.<br /><br />I read the article right here on Space.com
We all know the Sun will evolve into a bloated, overluminous giant about 5 billion years from now - a timeframe that depends on the amount of heavy elements in the Core. According to a fairly standard model, the Sunâ€™s future is as follows (in gigayears of the Sunâ€™s age. Subtract 4.6 Gyr to get the date from now)â€¦<br /><br />(A) Core burning ends, t = 9.4 Gyr<br />(B) Redwards Traverse, end of Main Sequence, t = 10.9 Gyr (Sun pretty stable, Marsâ€™ temperature rather nice)<br />(C) First RedGiant ascent, t = 11.6 Gyr (Sun goes from about 3 times present luminosity to about 2,400)<br />(D) Sunâ€™s Core explodes, Helium burning begins, t = 12.1 Gyr (Sun pretty stable, Jupiterâ€™s rather nice)<br />(E) Asymptotic Giant Branch, t = 12.2 Gyr (Sun goes from about 45 to 6,000 times present)<br />(F) Planetary Nebulae shed off, Sun dies as White Dwarf, t = 12.25 Gyr<br /><br /><br />Instead of migrating, moving the Earth, or moving into space permanently - and theyâ€™re all options that might be taken - I would suggest a more radical option: engineer the Sun.<br /><br />A few facts suggest this might be worthwhile.<br /><br />First, the Sun will go red giant after using a tiny fraction of its total energy potential. This seems rather wasteful to me.<br /><br />Second, magnetic fields can potentially reach all the way down into the Sunâ€™s core. Thus we might be able to control the Sunâ€™s energy output and its chemical evolution by inducing convection.<br /><br />So just how much energy is available? If all the Sunâ€™s mass converted to energy at current output it would last 14.5 trillion years. But itâ€™s a giant fusion reactor instead. Proton-proton fusion, and associated reactions, convert 0.685% of the mass into energy. As the Sun is currently 74% hydrogen, proton-proton fusion would last 74.6 billion years using all the hydrogen. If we ignited helium fusion after that we might get another 15 billion years.<br /><br />That sounds pretty good, but could we go further?<br /><br />Some of
One other option I'd forgotten was to change stars entirely. Red-dwarf stars can last for trillions of years. If we could engineer a fly-by of a red-dwarf then the Earth could be picked up and save us all the stellar engineering effort. Of course moving stars is a little bit trickier...
Hi Newtonian<br /><br />Just a thought on your apocalypticism, but where in the Bible does it say that God isn't going to expect us to do something with our brains in the aeons to come? A paradise Earth is a nice idea and probably a part of God's plans, but he has "created us to do good works" - some of which may well include re-engineering the Solar System in the aeons to come. <br /><br />The happy thought for believers is that we'll be around to find out just what our "Great Work" will involve.
Newtonian has been banned from here for a long time.<br /><br />Welcome to SDC, but you should check how old the post you are replying to is <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>
Perhaps we can soon, hit the sun squarely with a large iron/nickle asteroid at 1% of the speed of light. It might pentitrate the core of the sun displacing some of the hydrogen in the core. This should cool the core, by one part per million, long term. We would have to wait about 50,000 years to learn if the photosphere cooled, as it takes about that long for energy to move from the core to the photosphere. We could then repeat to keep the Earth at the optimum temperature for the next 6 billion years, as the sun would be using it's core hydrogen more slowly. <br />Then we could use the magnetic field to force outer layer hydrogen into the core, perhaps fast enough to prevent core collapse and helium burning for perhaps 20 billion years. The photosphere would perhaps be only red hot instead of white hot, and the Sun would shrink a bit, but high tech humans can likely cope with cold more easily than much too hot. Neil