The Gas Giant

rob0205 · Jun 24, 2007

would Europa be able to to obtain a state of terraforming? also would Europa be a hot planet because Jupiter being so hot?

Aetius · Jun 24, 2007

No. Europa's slightly less massive than our own Moon, and couldn't retain a significant atmosphere. Jupiter has quite a bit of internal heat, but not enough warm its satellites to any degree.

Aetius · Jun 24, 2007

It's also situated in the heart of Jupiter's radiation belts. I read somewhere that an unshielded astronaut on Europa's surface would be dead within 11 minutes.

kelvinzero · Jun 25, 2007

Walking on the surface, no. But europa is very interesting due to the probable liquid water under the ice, which would also provide natural radiation protection, and i guess necessary pressure. The question should probably be widened to ask if europa is a good place for a self sufficient colony. It has all the above, what about access to the other necessities of life? Here is the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_Europa Is it possible there are hotspots on europa that could support earth extremophiles right now? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremophile (note this link mentions europa)

weeman · Jun 25, 2007

I believe that Europa is too far from the Sun's heat, and doesn't pick up enough heat from Jupiter to make it a warm place to stay. Although It could hold warmer oceans (possibly water) under its surface, it still has a cold enough surface temperature that would most likely freeze water instantly. Europa has an average distance from the Sun of a little over 5 AU, or almost half a billion miles. So, it does not pick up sufficient heat fromt the sun. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Techies: We do it in the dark. "Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity." -Albert Einstein </div>

3488 · Jun 25, 2007

Hi all, perhaps I ought to jump in here. True, Europa is less massive than our Moon, being 67% the mass of Luna. Also sunlight out here, is only one twentyfifth or 4% as on Earth. Put in other words the solar constant on Earth is 1,320 watts per square metre. At the Jupiter system it is only 53 watts per square metre (assuming the sun is shining unhindered head on). Europa's AVERAGE surface temperature is Minus 152 Celsius, slightly colder than its neighbours (Minus 146 C), due to high albedo (reflectivity). Europa comes in fouth place in this respect after Enceladus, Eris & Triton. Europa does have an 'atmosphere' if you can call it that, most likely oxygen & hydrogen being liberated from the ice due to the high radiation environment & solar energy. The Hydrogen immediately escapes Europa, but is kept in Jovecentric orbit, by Jupiter's immense gravity field, forming a torus, centred on Europa. The Oxygen being heavier, & also cold can be kept for a time in Europa's one eighth surface G, forming an 'ionosphere' as the electrons are stripped due to Jove's trapped radiation. Regarding tides. Europa is sunjected to the same tidal forces that Io is, but in Europa's case are only 10% at most as strong. There may be subeuropan volcanoes on the 'sub surface oceanic floor'. The ice shell of Europa does appear to be detached from the lithosphere, completeting one extra rotation than the main body of Europa, once every half a million years. So every 250,000 years, opposite hemispheres face Jupiter. Evidence of this include arctuate scarps, & the lack of concentration of impact craters on the leading hemisphere. These have been no reported sightings of changed on Europa since Voyager 2 & Galileo, as well as during the Galileo mission. This was one of the goals of the Galileo missi <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

kelvinzero · Jun 25, 2007

I had some questions, but this link answered most of them: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4664 It has some arguments that europa is highly acidic. It does mention that some earth acidophiles can handle pH 0 though. Why is the earth's ocean less acidic than europa's is suspected of being?

yevaud · Jun 25, 2007

Natural buffering mechanisms. The below is a fairly topical, yet accurate description. Link <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

3488 · Jun 25, 2007

Thanks Yevaud & KelvinZero, Around my local area, we have a huge abundance of alkaline rich rocks and soils. Chalk, billions upon billions of tons of the stuff. In fact, my home town is built on chalk. I expect that you have heard of The White Cliffs of Dover. They mark the point where the North Downs (range of hills) run into the English Channel. Also in Sussex we have the South Downs & Beachy Head & The Seven Sisters, between Eastbourne & Brighton. There is enough alkaline here to raise the PH of very acidic seas. But these are Cretaceous sedimentary rocks, made from the Calcium of long dead sea creatures. Limestone also is a high PH rock. Europa AFAIK, does not have calcite rocks to raise the PH. Hence any acidity will stay or even rise, with highly acidic pollutants. If Europa does indeed have an ocean under all of that ice, I would expect it to be highly toxic. Seeing though how life has been found in the most unlikely places on Earth, then perhaps it can evolve to live in a low PH environment. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

majornature · Jun 25, 2007

I don't mean to jump of the subject of Europa, what about the satellite IO. It has more volcanoes than any planet and satellite. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> We are born. We live. We experiment. We rot. We die. and the whole process starts all over again! Imagine That! <img id="6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264" style="width:176px;height:247px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/4/6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" width="276" height="440" /> </div>

3488 · Jun 25, 2007

Hi majornature, What are you actually asking about Io? I am off to bed now. There is much info here Io info New Horizons. I will try & answer tomorrow. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

kelvinzero · Jun 25, 2007

If sedimentary rock were the only reason and sedimentary rock is a product of life then wouldnt life have to have evolved on earth in a highly acidic environment without sedimentary rock? Perhaps the tidal forces of jupiter are making europa more acidic than the earth ever was by bringing sulphur to the surface (either from vulcanism or IO)?

3488 · Jun 26, 2007

Hi KelvinZero, AFAIK, life is not necessary for the formation of sedimentary rocks per se, just eroisional processes & deposition in a liquid (In Earth's case water). The Chalk examples I gave, were because of their locality to me, their high alkalinity & the fact Life was necessary for that particular rock. Sandstone AFAIK does not require life. On Mars almost certainly sediments found by the MERs. On the Saturn moon Titan perhaps sedimentary water ice crystal 'rocks' laid down in liquid methane??? I think that I was unclear, sorry about that. I think that you are correct. Life must have evolved in highly acidic environments. Remember the Earth would not have had much, if any Calcium Carbonates. In East Africa in Tanzania there is a strange volcano called Oldoinyo Lengai, a volcano that erupts natrocarbonite, a highly alkaline 'lava'. Perhaps the early Earth had more volcanoes like Oldoinyo Lengai, thus preventing the early oceans from turning into acid??? Other links to Oldoinyo Lengai here & here. In Europa's case unless there is a similar form of volcanism, I would expect any oceans under that ice to have practically zero PH. Whether or not highly forms of life or even DNA can form in those conditions, I do not know. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 26, 2007

Hi aetius. Whilst Jupiter may nor be realeasing a tremendous amount of heat into interplanetary space now, in its youth, certainly did. Perhaps Jupiter resembled a Brown Dwarf in it youth (although Jupiter needs to be about 12 times more massive & upwards to really be one). Generally using the Galileans as a guide, Callisto is less dense than Ganymede, which in turn is less dense than Europa, which likewise is less dense than Io. This was because of Jupiter's immense heat, during formation, preventing volatiles from condensing near by. We see a general trend like this in the solar system. Mercury, Venus & Earth, all have densities of approx 5.5 g per cubic cm. Mars about 3.9 g per cubic cm (although Mars was almost certainly stunted in its growth by Jupiter, hence it relatively small size). Then the Asteroid Belt, mostly rocky or carbon rich, with some metal asteroids. Then the gas giants, Jupiter & Saturn, then the ice / gas giants Uranus & Neptune, then the KBOs Eris, Pluto, Quaoar, Ixion, Orcus, Varuna, 2003 EL61, etc. This clearly reflects the warmth of the Sun, during the planetary formation. The senior members of the Jovian system, seem to follow a similar trend. Hope this helps. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

majornature · Jun 26, 2007

I'm sorry. I forgot to ask the question. aetius said, quote/unquote, that juptiter heat system couldn't possibly heat up the satellites. My question was, since IO is the most active satellite in our solar system and a hot body at the most, doesn't Jupiter's internal heat system have an effect on Io? Or is it the gravity and radition that effect on Io? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> We are born. We live. We experiment. We rot. We die. and the whole process starts all over again! Imagine That! <img id="6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264" style="width:176px;height:247px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/4/6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" width="276" height="440" /> </div>

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