The magnetic field as "dark matter"

[kmarinas86]

Is it possible that the magnetic field has energy?<br /><br />If so, how much would that energy be?<br /><br />Would the energy have an impression on the space-time continuum?<br /><br />Since they extend infinitely, could the magnetic field of stars have more energy than the stars themselves?<br /><br />Could magnetic fields be the "dark matter" we are looking for?

 

[origin]

<font color="yellow">Is it possible that the magnetic field has energy?</font><br />No, not based on the accepted definition of energy.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">If so, how much would that energy be? </font><br />0<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Would the energy have an impression on the space-time continuum? </font><br />I don't know what this means.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Since they extend infinitely, could the magnetic field of stars have more energy than the stars themselves? </font><br />No<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Could magnetic fields be the "dark matter" we are looking for? </font><br />No, not unless you have some idea how a magnetic field can be converted to gravity. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>No, not based on the accepted definition of energy. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Origin is correct. You might want to consider *electromagnetic fields*. They could be an energy/mass source, whereas a magnetic field by itself would not be an energy source.<br /><br />Now of course if you're into the non-accepted (in electrical engineering) definition of magnetic fields that astronomers like to use, anything is possible, including conservation of energy defying processes like "magnetic reconnection".<br /><br />Origin is correct however, magnetic fields alone are not an energy source. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[gammarayburst]

Oh yeah, if gravity is a weak force then let me see you pick up a car!<br /><br />Well gravity acts like static electricity and anti-gravity supposedly is done with a high voltage/magnetic field also called lifter. Scientist just want to keep it a secret so they can profit from the technology and yet tell everyone it's something different and even get angry for suggesting it, like saying UFO propulsion cant work or anti-gravity is science fiction then go and work with it every day and still deny the truth to the public. <br /><br />Do you think if free energy was found we would hear about it? Never in a million years! Just like the AMA saying there is no cure for cancer when the cure made the cover page of DISCOVER Magazine back in 1984. If we were not kept “stupid” then we would have to be exterminated for risk of exposing their plan.<br /><br />If cures were found then the money idolizing researchers would be out of a job and as long as they continue to look for a cure they can continue to make a profit. Simply put, if they found the cure then they would be out of a job. So why else is it kept it a secret? <br /><br />UFOs are seen everywhere on this planet and still even with video and photos they are considered to be fakes, why? It’s scary to see most sighting coincide with historical events, like when the Mayflower landed on Plymouth Rock, the first nuclear test, 911, the crucifixion of Jesus, almost like the UFOers are travelers going back in time to witness historical events, but that would mean they were human not alien because why would aliens be interested in our history? Oh, but time travel is impossible. See Philadelphia Experiment, oh I forgot, that didn’t happen either. I believe we shouldn’t rely on scientists to get the truth when they seek profit in research.<br /><br />Lol, I read a question, where did all the gold go that was under the world trade center? And who took possession of all the gold in Fort Knox after the gold standard was abolished

 

[telfrow]

If you want to discuss topics such as UFO propulsion systems, UFO sightings, UFO photos, time travel, and/or The Philadelphia Experiment please do so in the Phenomena Forum, not here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[mindopener9]

Dark Matter may not even exist, at least not as particles that can be detected, according to a recent theory. Space.com just ran an article concerning combining Dark Energy and Dark matter into a Dark Fluid or an ether that permeates everything, but has little or no effect on small scale structures like our Solar System. It is very similar to a Modified Theory of Gravity where gravity acts as a repulsive force, only at intergalactic distances, between galaxy clusters & groups . For individual high mass concentrations like galaxies it is a gravity magnifier or concentrator which binds these larger systems together in precisely the way Dark Matter would w/o the need for WIMPS or other exotic particles. I can't explain it better than the article, but I read about this about 10 days ago on some UK website linked to a Yahoo news story (go figure). <br />So everyone must put this newest combining theory to observational and predictive testing to see if any flaws in the theory exist. So far, this theory can explain the Bullet Cluster's apparent indirect evidence for Dark Matter.<br />I like it because it would eliminate a blind alley of searching for something that isn't there (Dark Matter particles).<br />Now, tho, we have a new even more mysterious animal to contend with, but one instead of two. Kinda like Star Wars "The Force" which is supposed to permeate everything and helps to "bind the Galaxy together". <br />This is not Sci-Fi, tho, but a real scientific theory, that so far, has withstood basic observational tests. <br />I like it!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> We must progress and expand, or we will stagnate and die. </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

The problem with the notion that "dark matter" is related to "magnetic fields" is that magnetic fields do not contain mass. *Electro*magnetic fields *do* contain mass in the form of a stream of electrons, and charged ions flowing through the system. Magnetic fields could not cause the "dark matter" phenomenon or any part of it, because magnetic fields contain no mass. Electrons and ions flowing through the plasma could explain some of the "missing mass".<br /><br />Magnetic fields can "push" against other magnetic fields, so in a way, you might be able to associate magnetic fields with "dark energy". <br /><br />When you put *electron flow* with "magnetic fields" in plasma, you can pretty much explain all the phenomenon that we observe in space. Alfven wrote wrote papers galore, and even books about it, as has Peratt. <br /><br />"Dark" forces can be explained with "electromagnetic' fields, and IMO the term "dark" is only due to the fact that astronomers tend to *exclude* electron flows from the equation, and therefore they remain "in the dark". <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[origin]

<font color="yellow">"Dark" forces can be explained with "electromagnetic' fields"</font><br /><br />Please do so.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

I'll be happy to. Everywhere in any published paper where you see the words "dark energy" used, insert the term "electromagnetic waves". Anywhere you see a paper that uses the term "dark matter", insert the term "plasma flows" and/or "electron flows". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[origin]

<img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br />Typical strong supporting evidence for your ideas.... <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

There is strong supporting evidence that EM fields exist in space and can move objects and can move and deliver "mass" in great quantities in controlled laboratory conditions. Got any evidence that dark energy even exists in nature and can chagne the distance between objects in controlled experiments? Got even a single solitary gram of "dark matter" I can play with in a lab? Do you have any empirical evidence at all that dark anything can influence mass in controlled conditions? Don't even think about lecturing me about a lack of supporting physical evidence until you produce a gram of dark matter, and show me that "dark energy" does anything to objects made of mass in controlled conditions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[origin]

<font color="yellow">There is strong supporting evidence that EM fields exist in space and can move objects and can move and deliver "mass" in great quantities in controlled laboratory conditions.</font><br />Yes, plasma moves along magnetic flux lines - what does that have to do with your claim that dark energy can be explained by EM fields?<br /><br />The expansion of the universe is accelerating, which is counter-intuitive. This expansion is assumed to be due to some unknown force which has been dubbed 'dark energy'. <br /><br />What this 'dark energy' is not known - except for you Michael, I simply asked for some evidence to back your rather bold statement that EM fields are dark energy. Saying you can create magnetic fields in a lab that repel each other doesn't quite cut it.<br /><br />I don't know what is causing the acceleration in the expansion of the universe - you say you do, I would like to see some evidence to back up your statement.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Yes, plasma moves along magnetic flux lines - what does that have to do with your claim that dark energy can be explained by EM fields?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Plasma moves along *electrical* flux lines too. EM fields are 39 OOM more powerful than gravity and they are known to have a powerful effect on plasma, and can accelerate plasma to very high speeds.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The expansion of the universe is accelerating, which is counter-intuitive.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />The solar wind also accelerates which is also counter-intuitive. <br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>This expansion is assumed to be due to some unknown force which has been dubbed 'dark energy'.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />So the expansion of solar wind particles is caused by that same "dark energy"?<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>What this 'dark energy' is not known - except for you Michael,<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Birkeland knew it too, so did Alfven. I'm really a johnny-come lately to EU theory.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I simply asked for some evidence to back your rather bold statement that EM fields are dark energy. Saying you can create magnetic fields in a lab that repel each other doesn't quite cut it.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Sure it does. It shows *EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE* that EM fields have a measurable affect on matter in controlled conditions. Besides, if you *don't* know what "dark energy" really is, you can't even rule out EM fields to begin with!<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I don't know what is causing the acceleration in the expansion of the universe - you say you do, I would like to see some evidence to back up your statement.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />You don't know what accelerates solar wind either do yo <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[origin]

<font color="yellow">Sure it does. It shows *EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE* that EM fields have a measurable affect on matter in controlled conditions. Besides, if you *don't* know what "dark energy" really is, you can't even rule out EM fields to begin with!</font><br /><br />You don't seem to understand the expansion of the universe. It is <b>not</b> that the galaxies are <b>moving through space</b> at an increasing rate, which is what you are saying when you talk about EM fields accelerating matter (which is not strickly true anyway - EM fields move <i>charged</i> matter).<br /><br />Current cosmology says that the universe is acclerating its expansion because space is expanding at an accelerated rate. So again, what is your evidence that EM fields cause the universe (space) to expand at an accelerated rate. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>You don't seem to understand the expansion of the universe.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Nobody does. That's the problem. It's a "dark" mystery to everyone, not just me.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>It is not that the galaxies are moving through space at an increasing rate, which is what you are saying when you talk about EM fields accelerating matter (which is not strickly true anyway - EM fields move charged matter).... Current cosmology says that the universe is acclerating its expansion because space is expanding at an accelerated rate. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Show me a controlled experiment where "space" ever expanded. What is "space"? Define the term "space" in phyiscal terms for us, and tell us what is exapanding. What exactly is "expanding" in physical terms that I can empirically test for in a lab?<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>So again, what is your evidence that EM fields cause the universe (space) to expand at an accelerated rate.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />What empirical test ever showed "space" to expand? The acceleration of the universe is a *physical* event. EM field can accelerate objects in controlled conditions, therefore it is a viable way to explain physical acceleration. <br /><br />On the other hand, in the the lab when we see two objects where the "space" between them begins to expand at an ever accelerating rate, we look for the *force* of that acceleration, we don't claim that the "space between them is expanding". You're talking in metaphysical terms when you claim that space is expanding, your not talking about controlled laboratory physics.<br /><br />In physics, we look for a physical cause. What is "space" made of "physically", and how has it been shown to affect plasma in a controlled test of concept? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[origin]

Hmmm, I am detecting that you don't believe the accepted theory of the expanding universe that is taught in physics and astronomy. Since this is the basis of the theory of dark energy why would you even consider what dark energy is? It seems you may not even believe that space exists. <br /><br />Are you saying that since an electric field can accelerate a charged particle that the galaxies are moving away from us via an electric field?<br /><br />If that is true, I have a few questions.<br /><br />Does that mean that galaxies are charged?<br /><br />Do they have the same charge since they are moving in the same direction?<br /><br />Does the electric field eminate from earth, since they are moving away from us?<br /><br />However, do the galaxies closest to us have the opposite charge since they are moving towards us?<br /><br />Can we detect this massive electric field?<br /><br />What is the cause of this electric field? <br /><br />I am not really interested in the answers - If you discount the theories that physics and cosmology are based on the discussions just turns into hand waving, expounding on incomplete hypothises and putting forth half baked suppositions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Hmmm, I am detecting that you don't believe the accepted theory of the expanding universe that is taught in physics and astronomy. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I don't have a theoretical problem with an expanding 'spacetime" as the objects that make up spacetime expand away from one another. I don't even have a problem with acceleration of mostly plasma objects provided it is acted upon by a known force of nature (like an EM field). I don't buy the metaphysical description of an expanding "space", since I have no idea what "space" is made of, or how it might expand, unless you're intending to bring in an (EM?) aether concept somewhere along the way. <br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Since this is the basis of the theory of dark energy why would you even consider what dark energy is?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I've never seen a controlled scientific experiment that ever demonstrated that "dark energy" ever did squat to an object in a controlled scientific experiment. Define "dark energy" for me in non metaphysical terms so we can talk physics rather than metaphysics, and we can build a controlled experiment to demonstrate that dark energy isn't an EM field, but does have an effect on nature.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> It seems you may not even believe that space exists.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Sure I believe it exists, I just don't believe that it "expands' all by itself. Define "space"" for me in non metaphysical terms. How would "space" expand exactly?<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Are you saying that since an electric field can accelerate a charged particle that the galaxies are moving away from us via an electric field?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I'm saying that if we're looking to explain the acceleration of mostly plasma objects, the most likely known force of nature would be <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[origin]

<font color="yellow">We're (this galaxy) is simply surfing in intergalactic currents</font><br /><br />All of the galaxies beyond our local group are moving away from us. The only way that can be possible (excluding the accepted expansion of the universe) is if the 'intergalactic currents' are moving away from us in every direction. Right?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[origin]

<font color="yellow">What is the cause of this electric field? <br /><br />That's a bit like asking what was the cause of the singularity. From a scientifically and spiritually neutral perspective, it simply exists, and it surrounds us.</font><br /><br />That was not a philisophical question. In the lab if we want to create and electric field, you simply need to have a positive and negative charge in proximity to each other and an electric field is set up between them. If you deenergize the sources the field dissapears. My question is. what generates this massive electric field that accelerates galaxies? I would certainly assume that we could detect such a massive charge source. <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[mindopener9]

Galaxies spinning around their black hole centers like electric motors? That would explain why (I've no idea how) the magnetic galactic field, but not movement thru intergalactic space because of it. Dark Energy and Dark Matter are most likely two attributes of Dark Fluid, which is a new theory combining the two's effects into one explanation that requires no particles, such as WIMPS to exist. Acceleration of Cosmic Expansion is caused by a negative reversal of Gravity's forces between Galaxies, if I understand this correctly. It is standing up to scrutiny, so far. Everything IS connected after all, throughout our Universe thru this Dark Fluid, kind of like Star Wars' Force. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> We must progress and expand, or we will stagnate and die. </div>

 

[mindopener9]

I'm sure any galactic magnetic field would be masked by much stronger and similar fields in our own solar system, thus making them difficult, if not impossible to detect, at least at present. I personally doubt the existence of two seperate "Dark" forces. I much prefer the newest Dark Fluid theory, which may have to include this electro-magnetic field between galaxies to help eventually explain all of this. Right now, science just doen't have a real clue what Dark Matter is or what is the source and properties of Dark Energy. So others are actually trying to explain things in ways that actually have some weight and logic behind them. What is wrong with that?<br />Other than some wild goose chasing scientists losing some research grant funding, what harm is speculation going to do? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> We must progress and expand, or we will stagnate and die. </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>All of the galaxies beyond our local group are moving away from us. The only way that can be possible (excluding the accepted expansion of the universe) is if the 'intergalactic currents' are moving away from us in every direction. Right?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />It's only possible if everything in nature experiences a force of acceleration. As an analogy, let's think in terms of solar wind particles. As the solar wind particle leaves the relatively confined and dense region of the photosphere, it begins to become electromagnetically attracted toward the sun's heliosheath, and it experience acceleration. The solar wind particles tend to 'spread out' and go from greater density concentration, toward a much less dense heliospheric environment. As they mov and accelerate, the particles move away from one another over time. Our galaxy could be like a solar wind particle that is being accelerated over time, and is surfing a series of expanding EM waves. The waves of EM fields are "expanding" the particles and galaxies. The force of acceleration is the pervasive EM fields of the cosmos. The "missing mass" we're looking for is simply contained the plasma and electron flows through the threads of matter and spacetime as we understand it.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[origin]

That does not address why galaxies outside of our local group are all moving away from us. For a given distance from our galaxy which ever direction you look the galaxies are moving at the same velocity. <br /><br /><font color="yellow">It's only possible if everything in nature experiences a force of acceleration.</font><br /><br />That is exactly what the dark energy hypothesis is all about because the expansion of space itself is accelerating. The problem with the eletric field theory is that it is directional and therefore does not 'jibe' with observation.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

Sorry, I've been preoccupied at work recently as we get our new website up and running and get our .NET technologies online. It's been quite a learning process for me and I haven't had a lot of free time. Sorry for the delay in my response.<br /><br />The galaxies outside of our group are moving away from us like buckshot from a shotgun spreads out over time, and like solar wind particles spread out over time. They simply move away from each other over time due to their velocity and vectored direction. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

So are you saying our solar wind is affecting galaxies outside of our local group? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>