The Stick, a peek at the future just for fun

nolirogari · Dec 31, 2005

If my photo posts, this is a little peek at the future.

mattblack · Dec 31, 2005

That's cute! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

nolirogari · Dec 31, 2005

It ended up in the top of a tall tree today. Hope the real thing does better. Intresting that all of the images I've seen of The Stick on the pad show a red LUT, but mine is gray- they just don't do red towers at the Cape anymore. They also tend to do solid, or fully enclosed towers... wonder what the real thing will look like. It will be intresting to revisit my concept photos in a couple of years and see how close I was.

SpaceKiwi · Jan 1, 2006

Almost looks like a sea-launch, but nice pic. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

gunsandrockets · Jan 1, 2006

Nicely done. I bet your 'stick' with it's stabilizing fins ends up looking more like the real thing than the current artists' conceptions of the stick litering the internet.

nolirogari · Jan 1, 2006

I'll be most happy to have this thread turn into a discussion on the fins for The Stick. That would be terrific. I recall Shuttle_guy saying on another thread that ATK has a team of engineers working right now on the fins. So although some who talk like they know say that the fins are "not required" I trust people like Shuttle_guy (who actually DOES know what he's talking about.) Although I'm not an engineer, as a life long aviator, and rocket builder, I know that the basic concepts of aerodynamics and CG vs CP do not change simply because selling a concept to NASA sometimes makes the contractor imply that they will change. The fact is that in The Stick configuration, in the first phases of boost, the CG is way aft and without fins the CP is forward. Yeah, I know, "there's RCS on the adapter for that... yahdah, yahda, yahda" It takes a moment for RCS to command and fire, while fins are acting before the fact- thus fins make that differance in a critical abort area where the differance between ball-O-flame and escape is measured in less than seconds. Just my opinion... please, now everyone else lend your opinions. I'd like to learn from all of you who are better at math than I am.

strandedonearth · Jan 1, 2006

Just a WAG that the fins would weigh less than the RCS propellant (and tankage) needed to keep it straight...

nolirogari · Jan 1, 2006

"Looks like a sea launch..." That's the view from across the street from my home. The haze was thick and so the Chesse-peek Bay Bridge (12 miles in the background) was hidden. I was going to put some Cape Canaveral scrub and sand in the background from my photo collection, but just did not get around to it.

vt_hokie · Jan 1, 2006

It ended up in the top of a tall tree today. Did you get it back?

nolirogari · Jan 1, 2006

Nope... I can see it out my front window... parachute filled with the breeze it sits there... mocking me. Here's a better for fun image

drwayne · Jan 1, 2006

I still have a rocket in a tree over at the Rec center after two hurricanes.... Hows that for taunting? Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

nolirogari · Jan 1, 2006

I think you win. That beats me.

drwayne · Jan 1, 2006

You would have thought that two category 3 hurricanes would have found a way to get it down, or at least uproot the tree. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

Swampcat · Jan 1, 2006

"So although some who talk like they know say that the fins are 'not required' I trust people like Shuttle_guy (who actually DOES know what he's talking about.)" I'm just curious here. I responded to one of your posts in another thread concerning fins on the CLV and mentioned that I had performed some Rocksim sims that said a CLV model could fly without fins. I have been an amateur rocketeer myself off and on for over 30 years and I have no problem believing that Rocksim is correct. It is quite possible to fly a model rocket without fins. As far as the real CLV is concerned...that's another issue and I have no horse in that race, but I see no reason, with an active thrust vector control system (something a model rocket doesn't have), fins would be absolutely required. OTOH, when I built my CLV model, I put fins on it just to be safe and because the issue of whether or not the CLV was going to eventually have fins was undecided. Since the experts are still undecided on this issue it seems rather odd to use words like "some who talk like they know" when referring to people who suggest the fins are not required. BTW, nice model and I hope you can recover it and fly it again. I've lost rockets in trees before too and know what it's like. And personally, I hope the CLV ends up with fins so my model won't be too far wrong <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

nolirogari · Jan 1, 2006

I have not RockSim'ed The Stick without fins, but I'll give it a shot. I'd have to see the data used to make a point. Remember, RockSim is like any computer program and you can tinker however you want to get results. Also remember that there is a big differance between a model launched on a rail or a rod and a man-rated vehicle where escape is a big issue. There is also a consideration of the mass of an SRB and the mass of a T-20 body tube with a C6-7 in it. As far as the kit- since I'm the guy who makes and sells them, I just pulled another one out of stock and marked it off to "owner's joy ride." I'll build it next week- it'll come out as good or better. All of my kits are like that.

mlorrey · Jan 2, 2006

Keep in mind that only a fraction of the thrust of the SRB is in the nozzle. Most is up at the igniter, since the whole SRB is the rocket engine (unlike a liquid booster), so the center of thrust of the SRB is going to be further up the stack than the nozzle. If the center of thrust is above the center of gravity, then it likely is an inherently stable launcher.

Swampcat · Jan 2, 2006

"I'd have to see the data used to make a point." If you're interested, I could send you my Rocksim file. Keep in mind that my model is quite a bit bigger than yours and designed to fly on F, G and H motors. "RockSim is like any computer program and you can tinker however you want to get results." Agreed. Rocksim is only as good as the data you provide it. Before I fly any model, though, I make sure that the data I put into Rocksim, matches, as closely as possible, what I've actually built. "...remember that there is a big differance between a model launched on a rail or a rod and a man-rated vehicle where escape is a big issue." Of course. "As far as the kit- since I'm the guy who makes and sells them, I just pulled another one out of stock and marked it off to "owner's joy ride." I'll build it next week- it'll come out as good or better. All of my kits are like that." I envy you your job...building rockets for a living. I should be so lucky <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

nolirogari · Jan 2, 2006

I guess the real question is, have you actually flown one without the fins? Of course not, but it may be fun to make a SPEV, find an open area and try it. I'm pounding on a RockSim file of it myself- and I'll let you know how it comes out for an 18mm. (I have no doubt about yours- my wording was for those who may not have used Rocksim). Anyone, such as yourself, flying on F's and G's and so on knows their stuff. Ya's say you envy my job- thank you. When I was flying in the airlines people often said the same, of course I was in hell. So, I decided to do something else, well several something elses at the same time. The rocket business, however, has really taken off (to use a pun.) And it is now making more for me than any airline ever paid... and I just started in August 2004. The Saturns and Space Shuttle kits sell like crazy and I find myself being a space program spin-off. Yes- I make money from the space program... think about it. They asked for our predictions for 2006 on another thread- one of mine is that The Stick and SDLV in-line and Space Shuttle are going to make me some fair cash in 2006 while giving rocket buffs a lot of fun. Lots of kids are gonna be lookin' upward saying "Coooool" and lots of adults are gonna be grining as those models fly- not because of me, but because of spaceflight.

mlorrey · Jan 2, 2006

Are you selling your kits at the Christa McAuliffe Planetarium in NH?

Swampcat · Jan 2, 2006

"I guess the real question is, have you actually flown one without the fins? Of course not, but it may be fun to make a SPEV, find an open area and try it." I haven't tried flying a CLV model without fins, but I have flown a few rockets that didn't have fins with good results so I have confidence that it could be made to work. As I'm sure you know, the aft skirt on the CLV has a similar function to fins so it's not like there's nothing there to lower the CP. In fact, the term "skirt fin" is sometimes used in this regard. Adding some weight in the forward end allows adjustment of the CG into a stable configuration. I understand that this is more difficult with a smaller model using 18mm motors. With my model, using F, G & H motors, I have power to spare, so the small added weight isn't a problem. "The rocket business, however, has really taken off (to use a pun.)" Nice. I wish you more luck. I've often thought how cool it would be to make a living in that kind of business. I just never realized that the business was that good. Maybe I'll rethink my career plans <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

nolirogari · Jan 2, 2006

"Are you selling your kits at the Christa McAuliffe Planetarium in NH? " Nope- never been asked to do so. Currently I'm selling through Internet retaliers, e-bay, and my own web site. The Stick is so new, I haven't even gotten it on my own web site yet (was supposed to be done yesterday but my web master was hung over). Of course if you ask the folks in the planitarium gift shop, or whatever they have, I'm sure they'll tell you... well they'll probably tell you that they only deal with a single commercial distributor who decides what products to carry- and mine are not on that list. Just go to drzooch.com and, as soon as my web master gets around to it, you can get them there. "I've often thought how cool it would be to make a living in that kind of business. I just never realized that the business was that good. Maybe I'll rethink my career plans" Start by re-thinking your second job. I had a lot going for me before I started. I have an aviation/aerospace cartoon strip and web site with over 4.5 million readers world wide, I can illustrate and write all of my own instructions, my friend Tim who owns Apogee Rockets helped me with his experience and advice- plus software and my royalties checks from my other business all helped me get a good start. Other friends helped me learn who's who and where to go, the rest was improv. and luck. Of course it helps to be in a time of incline rather than decline in the spaceflight universe... it's an exciting time and the SDLVs, VSE, X-cup and all of the other space ventures make it even better. If you are gonna plant the seeds of a rocket business- now is the time!

mlorrey · Jan 2, 2006

Ah, well, I don't buy online, I was hoping you had a retailer near me, figured they'd carry it, if anything. You might give em a call, they are not bound up so far as I know with national corps at all.

Swampcat · Jan 3, 2006

Thanks for the advice. I've had some e-mail exchanges with Tim at Apogee as well. He bent over backwards to solve a problem I was having with Rocksim. I was quite impressed with his diligence and support of his product. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

The Stick, a peek at the future just for fun

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