Thinking of astronomy in college..

[Rianu91]

<p>&nbsp;Hello this is my first post in the forum. What brings me here is my interest in astronomy that goes back to as far as i can remember. When i first was able to read, i was reading through basic astronomy books (of course with large pictures!). Now that my high school career ends in a year, i must think of what colleges i will attend, and ultimately what i am going to do for a living. I am seriously considering majoring in astronomy. I do not doubt my ability to pass the rigorous course required for this field, so that is not my main concern. Can anyone give any advice or encouragement? Maybe what you do on a day to day basis? What do you expect astronomers to be researching in 10 years? Thanks ahead of time for the comments.</p><p>&nbsp;And by the way i am looking to purchase a telescope. Anyone have any recommendations for a small scope around 200-250 dollars? I have heard of dobsonians but not sure one the best ones to buy.</p>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;Hello this is my first post in the forum. What brings me here is my interest in astronomy that goes back to as far as i can remember. When i first was able to read, i was reading through basic astronomy books (of course with large pictures!). Now that my high school career ends in a year, i must think of what colleges i will attend, and ultimately what i am going to do for a living. I am seriously considering majoring in astronomy. I do not doubt my ability to pass the rigorous course required for this field, so that is not my main concern. Can anyone give any advice or encouragement? Maybe what you do on a day to day basis? What do you expect astronomers to be researching in 10 years? Thanks ahead of time for the comments.&nbsp;And by the way i am looking to purchase a telescope. Anyone have any recommendations for a small scope around 200-250 dollars? I have heard of dobsonians but not sure one the best ones to buy. <br /> Posted by Rianu91</DIV></p><p>Astronomy can be a rather broad sweeping term.&nbsp; Depending on what direction you choose to pursue within astronomy would determine what classes you might take.&nbsp; For example, If it is the Sun and stars that interests you, nuclear physics would be a good place to start.&nbsp; If it's planetary astronomy, you would need courses in geology.&nbsp; If you want to use astronomy to figure out what makes the universe tick, you need to understand General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;Hello this is my first post in the forum. What brings me here is my interest in astronomy that goes back to as far as i can remember. When i first was able to read, i was reading through basic astronomy books (of course with large pictures!). Now that my high school career ends in a year, i must think of what colleges i will attend, and ultimately what i am going to do for a living. I am seriously considering majoring in astronomy. I do not doubt my ability to pass the rigorous course required for this field, so that is not my main concern. Can anyone give any advice or encouragement? Maybe what you do on a day to day basis? What do you expect astronomers to be researching in 10 years? Thanks ahead of time for the comments.&nbsp;And by the way i am looking to purchase a telescope. Anyone have any recommendations for a small scope around 200-250 dollars? I have heard of dobsonians but not sure one the best ones to buy. <br />Posted by Rianu91</DIV></p><p>The astronomers with whom I have acquainted are all physicists.&nbsp; In many universities an astronomy degree is a physics degree with an emphasis on astrophysics.&nbsp; I am not aware of an undergraduate degree in astronomy per se, and I would not recommend pursuing one if there were.</p><p>Astronomy is a research discipline, as opposed to a discipline with immediate applications.&nbsp; As such it is dominated by Ph.Ds, although you may find employment in&nbsp;organizations whose mission is public education with a B.S or M.S.&nbsp; But if you want to do research you should plan on pursuing your education to the Ph.D. level.&nbsp; I think your best bet in doing that is to start out with a physics major, selecting your electives to emphasize your specific interests.&nbsp; That might include&nbsp;classes in&nbsp;geology, biology, or chemistry.&nbsp; Once you get a better background you will find the niche that interests you most and then you can concentrate on that niche in post graduate studies.&nbsp; But whatever you choose, a B.S. in physics will provide a good foundation.&nbsp; It also provides a good basis for pursuing other career interests if you find that astronomy is not what you want to do as a career.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[drwayne]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp; I am not aware of an undergraduate degree in astronomy per se<br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>I know my alma mater had an astronomy major.</p><p>Wayne<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I know my alma mater had an astronomy major.Wayne <br />Posted by drwayne</DIV></p><p>Yes, I just checked.&nbsp; Vassar does offer an astronomy degree that is distinct from the&nbsp; physics degree, even though it is one academic department.&nbsp; They are probably not unique in that.&nbsp; I think I would still recommend obtaining the BS in physics because it is more widely recognized, more flexible and I think at least&nbsp; as good a foundation for pursuing graduate work in astronomy.&nbsp; At my alma mater even Ph.D. astronomers received their degree in physics.&nbsp; It was just a matter of the field of concentration.&nbsp; That still strikes me as a good idea.&nbsp; <br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Anglocowboy]

<p>An astronomy degree sounds a lot like an anthropology degree;&nbsp; it should fully qualify you for a job waiting tables.&nbsp; Learn what you want, but don't expect it all to pay off just because it has the word "Bachelor's" prefixing it.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "Make like Siamese twins and split... and then one of you die." </div>

 

[Carrickagh]

<p>Hello Rianu91 and welcome to SDC. I admire your intended choice of careers.</p><p>There are many paths that can lead to a degree in astronomy. Most people enter a BS program of physics and astronomy. Many universities have combined major and award degrees in both. The physics is extremely useful as it provides the mechanical and optical underpinning that help us understand how the universe works. The astronomy in any baccalaureate program will cover a broad spectrum of topics. Here is a listing of typical astronomy courses an undergraduate might have access to:</p><p>http://www.pas.rochester.edu/urpas/astronomy</p><p>and here is a link to a page showing a list of recent graduates and what types of degrees they pursued...</p><p>http://www.pas.rochester.edu/urpas/</p><p>On the graduate level there are 3-2 programs wherein students will get a BS in Physics/Astronomy and then a MS in Physics/Astronomy. This can then be a good stepping stone toward the PhD. The PhD is useful for research and especially if you wish to pursue a career in academia. Depending on talent and interest there are many possibilities in terms of career path. I have worked in astronomy as well as in technical education for many years and have seen many astronomers work across fields, from manning observatories in Chile to spending years in front of a PC running highly specialized algorithms.</p><p>Here is a nice overview on astronomy jobs:</p><p>http://www.ucolick.org/~mountain/AAA/astronomer.html</p><p>Also, the American Astronomical Society (AAS) has created a very nice web site describing astronomers and how to become one.</p><p><u><font color="#810081">http://www.aas.org/education/students.php</font></u>http://www.aas.org/education/career.html</p><p>Please remember that theory is the backbone of technical fields but hands-on ability with computers, imagery software, and telescopes and CCDs can help you find a job. Even a technician with good skills running a telescope or electronics can be key. Astronomy is a hard track, even with a PhD. Many post-docs I know live on crumbs. This isn't to discourage you but just to let you know that some people will attain the degree but then go off and do other things. But that is typical of many fields.</p><p>Here is some generic info on salary and demographics:</p><p>http://www.querycat.com/faq/28374d54a801a67b192a76f07624fd49</p><p>As you are almost done with (I assume) high school this is the perfect time to look at colleges. You can do a web search and a link such as this might be a starting point:</p><p>http://www.astro.umass.edu/~arny/astro_ugprogs.html</p><p>(pardon me if these are North American centric)</p><p>You can start your career as an astronomer almost any day. You don't need a telescope and many avid amateurs tend to gather and pool resources in astronomy clubs, etc. </p><p>Good luck with your pursuit of astronomy!</p><p>Clear Skies!</p><p><br /><br />&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Anglocowboy]

<p>Excellent reply Carrickagh.&nbsp; Much better than my snarky one.&nbsp; One other thing:&nbsp; I've got two associate's degrees.&nbsp; I earned them both my second year out of highschool and now am very gainfully employed as a mechanical engineer.&nbsp; Gainfully enough to indulge my fancies in other things such as astronomy.&nbsp; You may think about gaining a more practical education and go for other stuff when you start making money, but whatever you do, have a passion for it.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "Make like Siamese twins and split... and then one of you die." </div>

 

[aphh]

<p>If I may suggest, I'd go first for a eh, hum.. a "real degree". Material science, chemistry, biochemistry, physics, or some such broader degree, that supports astronomy and astrophysics quite nicely, but also offers broader employment potential.</p><p>Having said that, I'm currently in the Open University studying astrophysics and astronavigation and on the path for a degree, should I see the need to commit years of hard study for a degree in astronomy.</p><p>I think what I'm trying to say here is, that if you're strong in math and physics, you could always go for astronomy and astrophysics later.</p><p>But if you're already strong in math, and really feel like it, then go for astronomy and astrophysics.&nbsp;</p>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If I may suggest, I'd go first for a eh, hum.. a "real degree". Material science, chemistry, biochemistry, physics, or some such broader degree, that supports astronomy and astrophysics quite nicely, but also offers broader employment potential.Having said that, I'm currently in the Open University studying astrophysics and astronavigation and on the path for a degree, should I see the need to commit years of hard study for a degree in astronomy.I think what I'm trying to say here is, that if you're strong in math and physics, you could always go for astronomy and astrophysics later.But if you're already strong in math, and really feel like it, then go for astronomy and astrophysics.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by aphh</DIV></p><p>I'm curious about the Open University and the what they require of individuals.&nbsp; </p><p>There have been others here that have used the claim of studying at the Open University as a way to substantiate their claims and or ideas as credible.&nbsp; They used their 'degree' from the OU as an appeal to authority.&nbsp; Needless to say, their knowledge was less than stellar...</p><p>I'm not implying that you, in particular, are using the Open University as an appeal to authority.&nbsp; Just curious as to what the qualifications are to attain a degree.&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[aphh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'm curious about the Open University and the what they require of individuals.&nbsp; There have been others here that have used the claim of studying at the Open University as a way to substantiate their claims and or ideas as credible.&nbsp; They used their 'degree' from the OU as an appeal to authority.&nbsp; Needless to say, their knowledge was less than stellar...I'm not implying that you, in particular, are using the Open University as an appeal to authority.&nbsp; Just curious as to what the qualifications are to attain a degree.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>In the University of Helsinki the courses that are offered in the OU are the same, that are part of the astronomy/astrophysics department's standard offering. The lecturers and the exams are the same. The exams are pretty tough even at 101 level, and require studying. Just being in the classes is not enough. </p><p>If I pass a course in the OU, it will be counted and I get the same points as the students that have entered via selection mechanism.</p><p>However, the OU does not offer all of the courses required for a degree, so at some point I'd need to get in via selection to finish the education. &nbsp;</p><p>I'll be starting the first astronomy course in August (beyond 101 or approbatur level), which will be followed by astronavigation 101. Math and physics will ensue.</p><p>I can recommend OU as the method of evaluating whether individual is committed enough to go through the whole process needed for a degree. I don't know yet about my future in this field, just taking courses as they are offered and try to pass it. </p>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In the University of Helsinki the courses that are offered in the OU are the same, that are part of the astronomy/astrophysics department's standard offering. The lecturers and the exams are the same. The exams are pretty tough even at 101 level, and require studying. Just being in the classes is not enough. If I pass a course in the OU, it will be counted and I get the same points as the students that have entered via selection mechanism.However, the OU does not offer all of the courses required for a degree, so at some point I'd need to get in via selection to finish the education. &nbsp;I'll be starting the first astronomy course in August (beyond 101 or approbatur level), which will be followed by astronavigation 101. Math and physics will ensue.I can recommend OU as the method of evaluating whether individual is committed enough to go through the whole process needed for a degree. I don't know yet about my future in this field, just taking courses as they are offered and try to pass it. <br /> Posted by aphh</DIV></p><p>I see.&nbsp; So you are using the same cirricula from a legitimate university.&nbsp; That's good.&nbsp; I wasn't sure how open universities worked.&nbsp; I'm always skeptical of those "get your degree from the comfort of your lazy-boy" advertisements.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>In the University of Helsinki the courses that are offered in the OU are the same, that are part of the astronomy/astrophysics department's standard offering. The lecturers and the exams are the same. The exams are pretty tough even at 101 level, and require studying. Just being in the classes is not enough. If I pass a course in the OU, it will be counted and I get the same points as the students that have entered via selection mechanism.However, the OU does not offer all of the courses required for a degree, so at some point I'd need to get in via selection to finish the education. &nbsp;I'll be starting the first astronomy course in August (beyond 101 or approbatur level), which will be followed by astronavigation 101. Math and physics will ensue.I can recommend OU as the method of evaluating whether individual is committed enough to go through the whole process needed for a degree. I don't know yet about my future in this field, just taking courses as they are offered and try to pass it. <br />Posted by aphh</DIV></p><p>That is interesting.&nbsp; I presume that you have some sort of access to videos of lectures, and can submit assignments via the internet.&nbsp; But I am curious about a few things.</p><p>1.&nbsp; Is there a means for asking questions and getting answers as one might do in a live class, either with the lecturer or via an assistant in a recitation section ?</p><p>2.&nbsp; How are tests administered ?&nbsp; Does everyone take them at the same time ?&nbsp; Are they what one would call "open book" ?&nbsp; If people do not take them at the same time, is there any sort of time limit, or just a time by which the results must be submitted ?&nbsp; It strikes me as quite difficult to devise a test for an undergraduate class that could be administered to users at remote locations, some of whom might try to cheat, and not make the test extraordinarily difficult.</p><p>3.&nbsp; How do you handle calculations for tests and assignments using the computer?&nbsp; Do you use somthing like LaTex? Or is it set up so that you do not have to produce calculations ?&nbsp; I don't know how a mathematics class would handle something like that without becoming rather watered down.</p><p>4.&nbsp; Is this format used only for 101 type classes or are advanced classes also offered ?&nbsp; It seems to me that as the level of the&nbsp;class, and hence class participation increase that the problems of remote instruction go up exponentially.&nbsp; My graduate classes were such that often students did between 50% and 100% of the talking, so remote instruction simply would not have worked. </p><p>5.&nbsp; Is there a textbook for the course and is that text specifically designed for computerized instruction and assignments ?&nbsp; If so, do you have an opinion as to whether the quality of the text has been compromised by being tailored for a computerized class ?</p><p>&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[aphh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That is interesting.&nbsp; I presume that you have some sort of access to videos of lectures, and can submit assignments via the internet.&nbsp; But I am curious about a few things.1.&nbsp; Is there a means for asking questions and getting answers as one might do in a live class, either with the lecturer or via an assistant in a recitation section ?2.&nbsp; How are tests administered ?&nbsp; Does everyone take them at the same time ?&nbsp; Are they what one would call "open book" ?&nbsp; If people do not take them at the same time, is there any sort of time limit, or just a time by which the results must be submitted ?&nbsp; It strikes me as quite difficult to devise a test for an undergraduate class that could be administered to users at remote locations, some of whom might try to cheat, and not make the test extraordinarily difficult.3.&nbsp; How do you handle calculations for tests and assignments using the computer?&nbsp; Do you use somthing like LaTex? Or is it set up so that you do not have to produce calculations ?&nbsp; I don't know how a mathematics class would handle something like that without becoming rather watered down.4.&nbsp; Is this format used only for 101 type classes or are advanced classes also offered ?&nbsp; It seems to me that as the level of the&nbsp;class, and hence class participation increase that the problems of remote instruction go up exponentially.&nbsp; My graduate classes were such that often students did between 50% and 100% of the talking, so remote instruction simply would not have worked. 5.&nbsp; Is there a textbook for the course and is that text specifically designed for computerized instruction and assignments ?&nbsp; If so, do you have an opinion as to whether the quality of the text has been compromised by being tailored for a computerized class ?&nbsp; <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>1 I participate in live classes together with other university students. There is no difference, besides I have paid a course fee, whereas the selected university students don't have to pay for the courses.&nbsp;</p><p>2 Everyone needs to take the test at the same time and same place regardless of whether one is a student of OU or a full-time student. I go to the university to take the test, just like all the other students.</p><p>3 and 4 See above. I'm not a on-line student, but a student in the university, who has not make a commitment for a full-time studies (has not entered via selection, but pays a fee for each course taken. Seats can be limited for a course, so paying is not a sure way of getting in the class every time).</p><p>5 We have both text books and get the material provided by the lecturer in electronic format. Next courses will include a lot more calculations, so I'd need to brush up my college math.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

 

[aphh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I see.&nbsp; So you are using the same cirricula from a legitimate university.&nbsp; That's good.&nbsp; I wasn't sure how open universities worked.&nbsp; I'm always skeptical of those "get your degree from the comfort of your lazy-boy" advertisements. <br /> Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>I know what you mean, and I also think there may be different types of Open Universities. But having participated in 2 courses now (astronomy 101, astrobiology 101), I can say that the courses are identical to the offerings of the University's Astronomy department and full-time students of the university also use them and they are fully compatible with their education.</p><p>I have calculated, that Bachelor's Degree could be within reach in 3 - 4 years, and Master's Degree in 4 - 6 years depending on how soon I got entered in the University as a full-time student. But I'm not sure if I'm willing to make the commitment, I'm in the classes merely out of curiosity and interest in astrophysics at this point. And to get the big picture, in which these forums are helpful aswell.&nbsp;</p>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;1 I participate in live classes together with other university students. There is no difference, besides I have paid a course fee, whereas the selected university students don't have to pay for the courses.&nbsp;2 Everyone needs to take the test at the same time and same place regardless of whether one is a student of OU or a full-time student. I go to the university to take the test, just like all the other students.3 and 4 See above. I'm not a on-line student, but a student in the university, who has not make a commitment for a full-time studies (has not entered via selection, but pays a fee for each course taken. Seats can be limited for a course, so paying is not a sure way of getting in the class every time).5 We have both text books and get the material provided by the lecturer in electronic format. Next courses will include a lot more calculations, so I'd need to brush up my college math.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br />Posted by aphh</DIV></p><p>So, the OU is really just a part of the regular university the difference being the admissions process and the payment schedule.</p><p>When you say that "selected" students do you pay for courses, do you mean that they attend the university for free ? Or do they pay a single tuition fee that covers all of their courses at once ?</p><p><br /><br />&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[aphh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>So, the OU is really just a part of the regular university the difference being the admissions process and the payment schedule.When you say that "selected" students do you pay for courses, do you mean that they attend the university for free ? Or do they pay a single tuition fee that covers all of their courses at once ?&nbsp; <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>You could say, that atleast in my case the OU exists on the side of the regular university. The courses that are offered are interchangeable and compatible with University's Astronomy department's standard offering, but the OU does not offer all of the courses needed for a degree. For the advanced courses I'd need to get in via selection. If I can pass courses in the OU, it is very likely I can pass the entry exam and become a full-time student with benefits. </p><p>Perhaps you don't believe me, but here the selected university students are even paid a small monthly payment for studying. Some might call it socialism, and technically that's what it is. But here they call it 'investment in the future'.</p><p>OU students pay for everything by themselves, but the fees are manageable.</p><p>Here is the offering of the Astronomy Department, the Approbatur level courses are offered also in the OU (some text may appear in Finnish): http://www.astro.helsinki.fi/opetus/kurssit/index2.shtml &nbsp;</p><p>After the Approbatur level I'd need to get in via selection, if I wanted the degree.&nbsp;</p>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>... I can pass courses in the OU, it is very likely I can pass the entry exam and become a full-time student with benefits. Perhaps you don't believe me, but here the selected university students are even paid a small monthly payment for studying. Some might call it socialism, and technically that's what it is. But here they call it 'investment in the future'....&nbsp; <br />Posted by aphh</DIV></p><p>You might call it socialism, but it is not uncommon in some form around the world.&nbsp; In the U.S, scholarships are not uncommon, and often they cover a large portion of the costs,&nbsp; Quite often tuition can be completely covered by a scholarship, though not all students receive scholarships.&nbsp; in any case the fees paid by students at public universities do not come close to covering the cost of the education received, so every student is subsidized to some extent.&nbsp; </p><p>In graduate school, fellowships and assistanceships are pretty normal.&nbsp; Those would normally cover all university fees plus a small stipend for living expenses.&nbsp; Years ago, when I was in graduate school the assistanceships paid all fees plus about $385 per month.&nbsp; Believe it or not, I often had uncashed checks -- that never happened after I became "gainfully employed" following graduation.&nbsp; In any case I never had to lay out my own money for graduate school -- unless you count the rather considerable foregone income from not having a regular job.&nbsp;</p><p>I looked at the web site.&nbsp; Your English is a lot better than my Finnish.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You might call it socialism, but it is not uncommon in some form around the world.&nbsp; In the U.S, scholarships are not uncommon, and often they cover a large portion of the costs,&nbsp; Quite often tuition can be completely covered by a scholarship, though not all students receive scholarships.&nbsp; in any case the fees paid by students at public universities do not come close to covering the cost of the education received, so every student is subsidized to some extent.&nbsp; In graduate school, fellowships and assistanceships are pretty normal.&nbsp; Those would normally cover all university fees plus a small stipend for living expenses.&nbsp; Years ago, when I was in graduate school the assistanceships paid all fees plus about $385 per month.&nbsp; Believe it or not, I often had uncashed checks -- that never happened after I became "gainfully employed" following graduation.&nbsp; In any case I never had to lay out my own money for graduate school -- unless you count the rather considerable foregone income from not having a regular job.&nbsp;I looked at the web site.&nbsp; Your English is a lot better than my Finnish. <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>With the population of only about 5 million, it would be wise to take care of the population anyway you can. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p>I took a look at the web sites for the University of Helsinki and the Helsinki University of Technology.&nbsp; I must say that I am impressed.&nbsp; Both schools seem to have high standards and are quite large, particularly given the population of Finland.&nbsp; It would appear that the Finnish people are rather well educated in the sciences.</p><p>The five year course of study leading to a Master's degree is different from what I am used to in the U.S. but strikes me as a pretty good idea.&nbsp; In the U.S. a Bachelor's degree is nominally a four year degree, but many students take five.&nbsp; The Master's degree is another two years, as in the Finnish system, but many students do not pursue a Master's degree which is considered a post-graduate degree.&nbsp; I think perhaps that Finnish university students are better prepared than are their U.S. counterparts, on average.</p><p>The U.S. has no Licentiate degree, although from the description the Master's degree in some disciplines might be considered comparable.</p><p>Probably the biggest difference that I see is the prevalence of Master's degrees among those who pursue the Ph.D.&nbsp; In the U.S. and particularly in the sciences many and probably most students who pursue the Ph.D. never receive a Master's degree.&nbsp; In fact, in the sciences and mathematics&nbsp;the Master's degree is often given to students who fail to make it through the Ph.D. program.&nbsp; That is not the case in engineering, where many students pursue a Master's degree deliberately as a terminal degree.&nbsp; But there is no particular need for any intermediate degree between a Bachelor's degree and a Ph.D.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm not sure that in the final analysis this distinction is particularly important, and I have no impression that either system is "better" than the other, but the difference is interesting.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>