unholy union to save the Shuttle!

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drwayne

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Uh, would you *not* expect a Ford related site to say a Ford is better than a Chevy?<br /><br />Certainly the Energia/Buran had much going for it.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
 
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CalliArcale

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Energia (with or without Buran) was a very interesting vehicle, and in its three flights, enjoyed a remarkable degree of success. Russia, lacking large test stands, cannot test all-up configurations of the really big rockets prior to launch, so that puts a heavier burden on the first flight. Nevertheless, Energia flew flawlessly on all three flights. (The Polyus launch did end in failure, but it wasn't Energia's fault. The booster on Polyus, designed to fire after Energia was done, didn't. Polyus is in the Pacific now.)<br /><br />But it did have foam insulation around the core stage. Just like Shuttle, Energia's core was cryogenic, running on LH2 and LOX. I don't know if there's much data available about it, although I'm inclined to doubt it. But I have anecdotally heard that it also experienced foam shedding. This may or may not be a contributor to the large number of tiles that were damaged upon Buran's return. It was able to return safely, but it would've been a maintenance headache had they ever had a chance to fly again.<br /><br />It might be cool to strap a Shuttle Orbiter to an Energia, and I have no doubt Energia could manage to load (unused SSMEs and all). Alas, there are no Energias to try it with. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
 
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mikejz

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In a related matter, Why not use the RD-0120 for the SDHLLV? Seems cheaper than the SSME and has a slightly higher ISP.
 
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lunatio_gordin

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and you said remove the SSMEs, which gives even more weight saved <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /><br />(though i really doubt they'd ever consider it.)
 
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n_kitson

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I thought there were only two flights of Energia - the launch of Polyus and the launch of Buran. What was the third flight?
 
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formulaterp

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Were there 3 Energia launches? Hmm, I always thought two.<br /><br />Amusing story about the Polyus. I don't know how much of it is true. Due to the mounting struts, which were designed for the Buran, the battlestation had to be loaded upside-down onto the launcher. The plan was to seperate from Energia, rotate 180 degrees, then fire its orbital insertion thrusters. However, due to human error, the software program which was uploaded included a 360 degree turn. Yes, it performed a perfect pirouette before plunging back into the atmosphere.<br /><br />I can only imagine what the folks in NORAD were thinking while watching this. <br /><br /><br />edit: Found a link. Same site mentioned earlier in the thread: http://www.k26.com/buran/Info/Polyus/polyus-energia.html
 
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john_316

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Perhaps a Kerosene tank doesnt need that much insulation. But you never know.<br /><br />A STS on Energia would seem interesting but I think the current ET dilemna can be resolved.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />
 
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drwayne

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Tangential note, I recall having seen discussions of chilling hydrocarbons, I think to improve density - seemed pretty marginal to me...<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
 
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nacnud

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Given the CG changes from removing the SSMEs from the orbiter would the thing even fly any more!<br /><br />I'd rather see the Vulcan developed, the Russian equvalent of the SDVHL inline, IIRC it had about 200 tonnes to LEO capacity!<br /><br />Edit: my mistake it could theoreticaly only launch 175 tonnes! Link
 
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drwayne

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Perhaps not as marginal as I remembered. <br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
 
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shuttle_rtf

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><br />don't know about that, but these guys say that the Energia-Buran was better than the STS. <<br /><br />Heh...that's a shock )
 
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drwayne

Guest
Don't get me wrong, I like the Buran. In particular, I like where the engines are, that you are not asking the craft to carry those big, useless engines around in space and re-enter with them.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
 
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shuttle_rtf

Guest
>"don't know about that, but these guys say that the Energia-Buran was better than the STS. <<br /><br />Heh...that's a shock ) "<br /><br />Not to me.<<br /><br />I was being sarcastic in an ironic way <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />
 
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shuttle_rtf

Guest
Is it a true story that the Soviets actually stole the NASA plans to the Shuttle? Rather than working it out via public information?
 
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frodo1008

Guest
Well if you take a look at pictures of the Buran, and then pictures of the shutttle orbiter, there IS just a tad simularity now, isn't there?
 
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frodo1008

Guest
I think that shuttle_RTF may have been a little harsh here. You are correct they did NOT steal the plans, it is rather obvious however, that they borrwed the plans.<br /><br />However, they did find their own rather unique and clever way of getting the craft into orbit. What has always amazed me is that they made the craft totally automatic, and without people on board. If I am not mistaken this is the only time that this was done with a reusable vehicle. We have to realize that these people ARE very good at what they do!
 
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shuttle_rtf

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I'm British. If you're not harsh, they deport you <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />
 
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drwayne

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"One of the things I liked is the fact they were designed with Jet engines to fly in the atmosphere once they reentered"<br /><br />I don't think that part of the design was ever finalized. They did have a prototype that was powered, and used for training though.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>
 
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