Venus Balloon Mission

[brellis]

up, Up and Away - NASA Article<br /><font color="orange">Scientists hope to learn more about climate changes here on Earth by studying Venus. A prototype balloon could eventually study the planet's surface and examine its atmosphere and the bizarre winds and chemistry within it. A team of JPL, ILC Dover and NASA Wallops Flight Facility engineers designed, fabricated and tested the balloon.<br /><br />Slightly smaller than Earth, Venus is often regarded as Earth's sister planet. Both have similar densities, chemical compositions and gravities. However, its atmosphere is nearly 100 times thicker than Earth's, which causes blazing temperatures at the surface. By flying in the cool skies above Venus, the balloons would avoid that environment.<br /><br />"The surface is hot enough to melt lead, which is why we can't study it for long from a lander," said Kevin Baines, JPL principal investigator for a proposed mission to Venus. "Without extreme and costly refrigeration methods, a lander would cook at those temperatures in just a few hours, but a balloon can stay in a benign environment, studying the planet for days, weeks or even months."<br /><br />The spherical balloon, 18 feet in diameter, is about the size of an inflatable children's jumper. Its aluminum coating reflects sunlight to protect the balloon from becoming too hot as it flies in Venus' upper atmosphere. Its outer transparent layer of the balloon is made of polytetrafluorethylene, also known as Teflon, the non-stick material found in cookware and on clothing. The material is highly resistant to the sulfuric acid found in clouds surrounding Venus. "The sun shines through the Teflon and reflects off the aluminum, and that keeps the balloon from overheating," said Jeff Hall, JPL's lead balloon engineer.<br /><br />The balloon's second layer has a mylar film similar to those shiny helium balloons found in a grocery store. The myl</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Hi Brellis<br /><br />That would be a fantastic mission.<br />I hope one could do that one day in the warm layers of Uranus or Neptune.

 

[no_way]

soooo ... whats new since Venera & Vega ?

 

[JonClarke]

They are designed to last four times longer than the VeGa balloons.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

Good! I'd love to see that mission happen. Venus is a ridiculously easy planet to explore as long as you stay in the cloudtops and it only takes a few months to get to. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[solarspot]

I read about this earlier today. One thing confuses me about it tho: why choose the area in Venus's atmosphere with earth-sea-level atmospheric pressure and avg. temperature while if you can withstand 80ºC then you could go lower down and get higher pressures (say twice earth-sea-level pressure), making an aircraft/balloon easier? Sorry for the run-on sentince...<br /><br /><br />

 

[j05h]

<i>> soooo ... whats new since Venera & Vega ?</i><br /><br />Magellan radar mission? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[mithridates]

I'm not certain, but I think it's because the superrotation of the atmosphere drops off after a certain point after which the winds become quite calm. They're extremely slow near the surface and stay that way for quite a while until they suddenly reach the high speeds they have around 50 km above the surface. Without the high winds it would be impossible to complete a rotation of the planet in four days. That's my guess. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>they are designed to last four times longer<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />I would expect that. So like, four days instead of one.<br /><br />What i found odd is that the article linked to makes no mention of previous Vega missions at all, when its basically direct evolution of the same concept.<br />When MERs were in preparation phase, every single media piece pointed out how they are an improvement over Sojourner&Pathfinder.

 

[JonClarke]

[sarcasm mode on]<br /><br />Of course there was no mention. VeGa was a Russian mission. They don't count.<br /><br />Just like Lunakhod does not count when talking about planetary rovers - even though they were the biggest, heaviest, and most travelled robotic rovers to date.<br /><br />[sarcasm mode off]<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[no_way]

Venera was Russian, Vega was a multinational effort.

 

[3488]

Hi Joel.<br /><br />I agree, totally.<br /><br />Thanks brellis.<br /><br />VEGA was multinational, BUT the Soviets carried out the final prelaunch checks,<br />launced them, navigated them, not to mention they were Soviet built.<br /><br />I agree Jon, the Lunokhods were amazing rovers. When my technical troubles are over, I will find Lunokhod material & if I can<br />find enough, start a thread.<br /><br />Amazing lunar probes they were. Shame that they are all but forgotten now, accept for the<br />few of us on the boards who care about this sort of thing.<br /><br />Below Lunokhod 1 wheel tracks in the Lunar regolith.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

The article mentions the Vega missions:<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Each balloon would have quite a roller coaster ride, moving up and down about a half a mile in altitude as they ride gravity waves generated by Venus' mountainous terrain.<br /><br />"This was one of the surprises of the Vega balloon mission the Soviet Union flew more than two decades ago," Baines said. "Enormous gravity waves appear to rise up more than 30 miles into the upper atmosphere, causing unexpected depositions of energy generated at the surface and producing strong vertical movements of air. We want to ride these waves, measuring their effect on Venus' bizarre high-speed winds." <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi mithridates<br /><br />It would not be 'gravity waves'. That sort of thing is very star trekkie & is<br />not real science, as such. <br /><br />Venus may have Mass Concentrations, like those on the Moon, where the are regions of denser <br />& less dense material, perhaps that is what you may also be referring too.<br /><br />What I think you mean, are atmospheric troughs (low pressure cells), that the mountainous terrain, <br />may be causing when the wind blows over them, some what a similar phenomenon to <br />the monsoon caused by the Himalayas.<br /><br />These troughs in the lee of the mountains on Venus, would extend well into <br />Venus's stratosphere.<br /><br />Those waves caused by these troughs, would be a ride & a half indeed & I doubt very <br />much that it would be a smooth one.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[mithridates]

Are you certain that term's incorrect? That wasn't used by me, but rather "Kevin Baines, JPL principal investigator for a proposed mission to Venus". It's all just a quote from the original article. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>----- </p><p>http://mithridates.blogspot.com</p> </div>

 

[no_way]

Indeed, it does, i was wrong. Comes from the bad habit of diagonal reading.

 

[anthmartian]

I would say the term is incorrect ( and i'm a trekkie!! ) Unless they know something about Venus we do not, i cannot see how a balloon is going to ride "gravity waves" ? <br /><br />I also agree about the Lunakhod's and the whole Soviet exploration of venus too. If the Lunokhod Lunar missions happened today, maybe by NASA, then it would be getting a lot of exposure right now as are other such endevours. <br /><br />Russian or Soviet achievements are played down sadly. If that is still down to political bias, then it's a sad thing that due to that present or future generations are missing out, or being deprived of vast amounts of knowledge gathered in the past. It also leaves a gaping hole in the history of space exploration. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

In reply to: "why choose the area in Venus's atmosphere with earth-sea-level atmospheric pressure and avg. temperature"<br />---------------<br />1) may be there is in their mind (un-avowed) the faint hope of finding air-borne or water-droplets borne bacteria<br />2) but I would rather think they want to avoid having to thermally control the electronics, and to manage an external pressure on the platform/payload.<br /><br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

Hi Andrew<br /><br />I think they mean this type of gravity waves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_wave .<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[solarspot]

"2) but I would rather think they want to avoid having to thermally control the electronics"<br /><br />Would electronics need to be thermally controlled if the ambient temp. is 60ºC? I wouldn't want to try designing something to operate less than 1k from the surface, but I'm wondering if they could operate at temperatures and pressures at least slightly higher than we have on Earth. And couldn't bacteria survive in 1.5 or 2 bar?<br /><br />Sorry I'm no expert on this subject, but I do find that part slightly confusing.<br /><br /><br />

 

[ew1962]

how can ballons work on venus?

 

[MeteorWayne]

A balloon works by enclosing gas less dense than the surrounding atmosphere, so it floats.<br />Since Venus' atmosphere is more dense than earth's that is not a problem. <br />Having it survive there is more difficult, due to temperature and sulfuric acid content of the atmosphere.<br /><br />Welcome to SDC! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[ew1962]

I am interested in space exploration but admit to being a little lacking in the rocket science area. I think this stuff is great and want to go on a space ride someday. I have some friends that are real space scientists. One of them told me about this site. So I am here just checking things out. Thanks for the welcome though.

 

[ew1962]

What is this """But the Krell forgot one thing. Monsters, John...Monsters from the Id"- <br />Forbidden Planet" at the end of your message mean?

 

[MeteorWayne]

It is a quote from one of the top 3 Science Fiction movies ever made, IMHO<br />(In my Humble Opinion), Forbidden Planet.<br />Check it out some time <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>