Were there puddles in Endurance Crater?

[brellis]

NewScientist Article<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

I remember rlb2 arguing for this idea, with the same identical pictures, over and over. Too late now to go back and look...Stevehw33 denied it was possible, of course.<br /><br />Personally, I think it is a very smooth coating of fine dust. Very fine dusts, especially those with nanospherical particles of uniform size and substantial surface charges on the particles to cause repulsion, behave and look just like liquids. I have seen some with these properties in our labs. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[brellis]

space.com article <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[dragon04]

I'd really like to believe that was standing water in that image, but I have my doubts.<br /><br />With what we know about Mars, it would seem to me that we could calculate atmospheric pressure at that particular elevation.<br /><br />We can reproduce that same pressure here in a lab. We could start with fresh water and increase its salinity until it doesn't boil off.<br /><br />It would seem that water ice might be a problematic explanation, and here's why I think so. Depending on the amount of salinity needed for liquid water to exist in such quantities and in such a way as the image depicts on the surface of Mars, would it ever get cold enough at that latitude for such salty water to even freeze?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[anthmartian]

I agree with Silylene here. I remember the images from around this time at Endurance very well. I was colouring many raw B&W RGB sets around that time. Following Opportunity very closely.<br /><br />The only idea that came in to my head was fine dust settling in cracks between the slab like rocks. I have worked with extremely fine powders in my job, and just as Silylene says it can behave like a liquid.<br /><br />In addition to that, these "puddles" were imaged a lot. I have seen numerous images where the fine powder which i feel is responsible for the "puddles" can be clearly seen as mini dunes. There is no way the breeze is going to be strong enough to whip up ripples in water to explain that away. <br /><br />Many people just cannot comprehend just how fine the Martian dust is. It has been eroded for so long in a environment so dry we have no comparisons on Earth. To simply say it is fine is an understatement, it is comparable to cigarette smoke! It is that fine.<br /><br />As Silylene says, if you get a pile of that dust building up in cracks between rocks, in a sheltered crater, and in a location on Mars were we are not even seeing dust devils, as at Gusev. It will look and act like liquid.<br /><br />I would jump up and down with delight if Opportunity had captured images of free standing water. But, i didnt get excited back when the rover was taking the pictures, and i am not now i'm afraid. <br /><br />The fact that colour images are making the "puddles" look blue is adding to this water theory too. Maybe some are seeing blue/gray puddles and thinking water! Water reflection would not be blue on Mars either. It is a nightmare getting rid of blue on these images that's a well known fact. Which has been discussed on another topic here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

As I have said elsewhere use by NS of that image of Endurance crater to illustrate that story is completely irresponsible journalism. First, the image is of the wall of Endurance crater, sloping 20-30 degrees. Water isn't going to puddle on such a slope. Secondly the image is false colour. The red-brown of haematite is coloured blue in that image.<br /><br />There are places where water flows briefly on the surface of Mars, there are almost certainly lots of places where there are emphemeral damp spots. But this image is not of one of them.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

New Scientist does not have a stellar reputation in my eyes. A rather fringe publication, IMHO.<br />But it sells <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

I used to read every issue, but went off it and stopped buying it. A lot of space in the articles is taken up with "cool" but meaningless graphics which I found quite frustrating as I'd rather have seen a more dull but more informative diagram, graph or whatever. Additionally, I found many of the articles to be written from a rather basic perspective, e.g. the "Helix Of Life" curse that afflicts any TV documentary about DNA, where they have to spend half of it explaining what DNA is in a quasi-mystical fashion. It seems to me that many of the journalists writing for New Scientist have little real understanding of science- which may be why there have been more and more complaints of them publishing pseudo-science and crankiness.

 

[h2ouniverse]

NS journalists are quite manipulative as a matter of fact. This being said it is good to spark controversies (such as with Shamwyer's emdrive). I think it is healthy that there is opposition between so-called "crackpots" and so-called "established scientists". <br />Of course pseudo-science shall be exposed and ultimately defeated. But also, there is a bothersome trend in the scientific community to ignore facts that do not fit known mechanisms or theories. <br />I am appalled when I see scientists who have this (very unscientific) behaviour. When presented with such "abnormal" 'facts", they can (and should) of course be skeptical and attack the factuality of the "fact" or "observation". E.g. were data manipulated, or unduly processed, or not statistically significant, or with observational bias, ...? A "fact" is not sacrosanct. And they will prove ultimately right in most cases. But to lambast and ignore people presenting "facts" because it does not fit theories is irrelevant. If they were engineers ignoring an anomaly report because "it cannot be", they would be fired immediately.<br /><br />So it is good that some balance is kept. <br /><br />Of course, by honesty, they should always associate these unorthodox "facts" with caution and skeptical reactions from the Establishment. What they - shamefully- do not do.<br />

 

[3488]

Remember all, whilst New Scientist is a quality publication in the main, it must pander<br />to advertisers. The need to publish sensationalist maeterial from time to time,<br />to meet its commercial obligations <br />(i.e sell more magazines to generate more revenue for the advertisers).<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[paulscottanderson]

I wish this was surface water; unfortunately in this case I doubt it also. As mentioned in some other forums, the "puddles" in the photo (which looks false colour to me as well) are just a part of many other similar linear features on Burns Cliff in Endurance crater. They are <i>not</i> on the crater floor, as stated, they are on the cliff wall, which is fairly steep. The "puddle" area is circled here in a linked photo of Burns Cliff, compared to the photo in the article:<br /><br />http://web.mac.com/paulscottanderson/iWeb/planetaria/puddle_burnscliff.jpg<br /><br />http://web.mac.com/paulscottanderson/iWeb/planetaria/puddle.jpg<br /><br />Anyone who is familiar with the studies done at Endurance crater knows that cliff is rather steep. Water could perhaps seep out here and run down the cliff briefly, but not likely pool. Unless this is water residue which has frozen in place, I think these are probably dust or soil deposits, as indicated by the MER team. One caveat is that this is the only image shown in the article. If there are others, I'd like to see them when the paper is published. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">-----------------</span></font></p><p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">The Meridiani Journal</span><br />a chronicle of planetary exploration<br />web.me.com/meridianijournal</font> </p> </div>

 

[dragon04]

We would have to be extraordinarily lucky to catch a liquid outflow "in action" I would think. Needle-in-a-haystack lucky.<br /><br />And even if we did, it would have to be very large to recognize it for what it is, I think.<br /><br />Standing water at even the lowest observable elevations on Mars doesn't seem very likely. Is there even any data on what atmospheric pressures would be like at the bottom of Valles Marineris?<br /><br />To reference the discussion of "holes" in the Martian surface and the potential implication of lava tubes, that would be an interesting place to look. Kilometers deep beneath the surface.<br /><br />It would be fascinating to "drop" a small rover into one of these holes and have a look around.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[robnissen]

Thanks-a-lot Paul. Publishing those links and raining on my parade (pun intended). <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> As much as I wish that was standing water, I think the links to the two pictures you posted are dispositive evidence that they are not standing water.

 

[paulscottanderson]

Sorry, it rained on my own parade, too... I was intrigued until someone pointed out the location on Burns Cliff, and when I checked it myself, sure enough. Oh well. I would like to see if any other images are used in the published paper, but at least with this one used in the article, I don't see how it could be water pooling there, on that steep slope. There's still debate in various forums I see too, as to whether the image is actually false colour or not. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">-----------------</span></font></p><p><font size="1"><span style="font-weight:bold" class="Apple-style-span">The Meridiani Journal</span><br />a chronicle of planetary exploration<br />web.me.com/meridianijournal</font> </p> </div>

 

[anthmartian]

Here are a couple of images i just coloured of Burns Cliff, and the "Puddles". from Sol 288.<br /><br />The first image is a "Raw" RGB set put together in photoshop. It gives the false look that is helping to support the Puddle theory.<br /><br />Below that is an image i made which compensates for the well known problems regarding too much blue in some rover imagery. I think you'll agree the lower image looks far more natural. I also believe had these more natural and true colour images appeared more, then the article would never have been written. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[anthmartian]

These images can be seen at full res on my site.<br /><br />http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth<br /><br />True Colour...<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Very nice work! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

They don't look like water or a fluid to me either <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /><br /><br />The impression of a substance more like powder paint. It appears to be opaque, and non-reflective, even in the "blue image". My money's on dust, too.

 

[arkady]

Couldn't these "puddles" or flows be gaseous in nature? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>

 

[jaxtraw]

If that were the case, wouldn't we see some "billowing"?

 

[arkady]

Possibly, I won't presume to know a lot about these things. Thought just occured to me a couple of times by now. <br /><br />I imagine some kind of evaporation "mist". What characteristics such a phenomena would display given conditions at this particular site is unknown to me, but certainly imaginable.<br /><br />Oh, and thanks Anthmartian, I failed to notice the point you just made with your last two postings. Perhaps we are getting slightly ahead of ourselves here.<br /><br />Exciting nevertheless. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "<font color="#0000ff"><em>The choice is the Universe, or nothing</em> ... </font>" - H.G Wells </div>

 

[anthmartian]

Thanks for the comments. Not a problem. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I was very interested in this personally. Was also interested in hearing your views too. Glad to have been a help, or source of inspiration.<br /><br />I feel this pair of images really does highlight the false colour side of things. The sky here is so obviously false ( unless you subscribe to the blue sky on Mars theory, which is a whole other can of worms! ).<br /><br />It also shows that, even in 0.38 gravity, puddles could not gather in such a steep location.<br /><br />The more i look at this type of feature, the more it appears to be an extremely fine material settling. Dark basaltic sand or powder.<br /><br />One things for sure, it has been a fun discussion, it has also made me appreciate just what a fantastic mission this is. Having to go back through nearly 1000 Sols of images to post these pictures, from one of 5 cameras, really underlines what a wealth of data we have at our disposal.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[anthmartian]

As with the previous set, full res versions are here...<br /><br />http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth<br /><br />Natural colour...<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em>"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"</em></font></p><p><font color="#33cccc"><strong>Han Solo - 1977 - A long time ago in a galaxy far far away....</strong></font></p><p><br /><br />Click Here And jump over to my site.<br /></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi Anthmartian,<br /><br />What you have said is more than true. I think the 'blue sky on Mars fallacy' is just<br />that, a fallacy.<br /><br />rlb2 & yourself alone have proven this time & time again, not to mention the geniuses<br />who worked on the Vikings, Pathfinder & the MERs<br />at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.<br /><br />The 38% surface gravity is as effective as Earth's at causing runoff.<br /><br />Along with the fact that the atmospheric pressure on Mars at the datum line,<br />is the same as Earth's is at 30 kilometres above sea level.<br /><br />I doubt there is liquid water at this site at all.<br /><br />Ice maybe, liquid water in the past, most likely, but not now.<br /><br />BTW, I should have some more material for you shortly.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

OK but your picture clearly evidences a piece of wood across the river, in the bottom righ corner! LOL<br />(<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" />) <br />