Wet mars

[sponge]

Just what is the likelyhood of Mars becoming wetter, as the Sun gradually expands into a Red Giant? What time frame can any one give on this and for how long will Mars, if ever be temperate? And whats the most likely scenario on what the terrain will look like?(including atmosphere layers and make up.) What is the likelyhood on having the right chemical make up for life, if this ever happens? Any theories or factual answers appreciated.<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><u>SPONGE</u></em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

The suns expansion is theorized to be gradual, on a scale of perhaps hundreds of thousands to millions of years. This ought to be enough time for Mars to evolve to a wetter state. Any answers you get would be theoretical based on some current facts. Having said that, the main problem is atmosphere. Mars atmosphere is very thin and I don't know if increased temps will affect it much. Mars atmosphere would have to be able to support water in a liquid state. Most scientists believe water on mars cannot exist at the surface in a liquid state due to the extreme low atmospheric temps.<br /><br />There could be conditions that would allow liquid water on mars so its not entirely ruled out. As the sun begins to expand, the martian polar ice caps would begin to melt. Water could flow from that but overall. Mars would probably be more damp than wet. More water present in a liquid state in the scenario your proposing but I seriously doubt there would ever be enough to become oceans in the earthly sense. Solar heating might liberate trapped elements that would become part of a new mars atmosphere but I'm not certain what an atmospheric layering might appear like or be composed of.<br /><br />As for life, I'm of the thought that there could be microbiological life forms on Mars right now. This because its going to take serious investigation to know if mars is barren for sure. A few space probes cannot answer that question with 100% certainty.<br /><br />The current conditions on Mars may be just minimal enough to support microbes and I suspect that Mars was a planet that never quite got to an earthlike stage but simple organisms may have taken hold and may be presently living, hibernating, or fossilizing...or all three situations may be occuring today. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[3488]

I generally agree with qso1.<br /><br />As the sun brightens, the surface temperature of Mars will certainly rise high enough for the atmosphere to thicken. I have doubts about how it will remain though. <br /><br />Surface gravity of Mars is 38% of Earth's. As far as we know, the volcanoes are extinct, so a major source of atmospheric replenishment is not there.<br /><br />True the atmosphere will thicken up for a time (polar caps will melt & evaporate for sure), but it will then be stripped away by the solar wind (which by then will be considerably more intense than now). No global magnetosphere to protect it.<br /><br />This is why terraforming Mars will never succeed.<br /><br />In short, I think, Mars will have a short term, fairly dense atmosphere. Long term, Mars will become like Mercury & the Moon. Without an atmosphere to speak off, & horrendous temperature extremes between day & night.<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

3488:<br />but it will then be stripped away by the solar wind (which by then will be considerably more intense than now). No global magnetosphere to protect it.<br /><br />Me:<br />excellent point. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[sponge]

qso1- 3488<br /><br />Thanks for the replies, your comments about the impact that the expansion of the sun will have on Mars, are inline with most models ive been fimiliar with before. Interesting point though 3488, the intense solar wind eventually stripping the atmosphere away, who knows, that bohemoth Oylmpos Mons, might have something to say about that yet. (a faint hope)) Qso1 you said you had a theory that microbes might already be present on Mars, I think this theory is well founded considering the microbes that live in rocks here on earth in extremely cold and arid conditions. A little extra heat on the planet my push for something else to come out of the wood work. Is it still likely that Mars might still be geologically active in some way. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><u>SPONGE</u></em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

One things for certain, much is left to learn about Mars and one day, and IMO were going to need a human mission to answer the question of whether there is actually life there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[sponge]

I agree, a human presence is the best answer for exploration. A geologist obviously would be my first pick for one. Then a drill rig, an Lf 90 might be the go, considering the the decreased gravity, should be able to extract core samples up to 1000m. Pity money is a problem for space exploration, id like to see a human presence on Mars in my life time which is quite possible for me, but im not sure about you old fella. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><u>SPONGE</u></em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Don't forget the exobiologist.<br /><br />And yes, I probably won't be around for a human mars mission. Back in 1976 I was virtually certain I'd see it by the mid to late 1980s. Early 90s tops. Now it seems further away than it seemed then. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[sponge]

yeah well 76 was the year i sprang into the world, so if i live another 40 years ill be happy, hopefully this is more than enough time to plan a manned trip to Mars. Though at the moment I cannot see any light at the end of the tunnel. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><u>SPONGE</u></em></p> </div>

 

[sponge]

If all the theorised impacts on Mars take place, and there does become a window for humans to exploit it, if we are still around, any one got any thoughts on how long this window would last, does a billion years sound feasible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><u>SPONGE</u></em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

I was 20 in 1976 so I might get to see a human mars landing mission yet. If some reason comes about to hasten the process, it could come as early as 2025.<br /><br />The only reason I can see at this time is discovery of indigeounous organisms by unmanned probe. Organisms that would have to be verified as originating on Mars by humans. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[betelgeuze]

hmm I dont know, I think this would make everything slow down instead of speeding things up.<br />Humans, and the little life forms we bring with us, wouldn't be good for mars-life, and mars-life could be dangerous for humans too.<br />If we discover life on Mars we would probably want to know more about them before sending humans to look for them! <br /><br />Some people say if we find life on mars we shouldn't go to mars at all. We dont have the right to invade an other living world, we would only do bad.

 

[sponge]

I can understand what your saying, but in reality humans are explorers, the same could of been said about the early explorers of SE Asia and the Americas. We would have to explore Mars if we knew that life was there. Even if there was a biohazard raging accross the planet" it give more grunt to the little red planet. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><u>SPONGE</u></em></p> </div>

 

[betelgeuze]

I think we should eb afraid of killing the mars life instead of it killing us. Thats what its about, thats why landers have to be 'clean' before they go to mars.

 

[3488]

Hi there all.<br /><br />I agree, there is still much to be learned. However it is a known fact that the sun's increase in output in its 'Autumn years' will strip away the atmosphere. <br /><br />However we are not sure that the volcanoes are actually extinct. If they are still active, & continue to be so when the sun matures, than obviously the atmosphere will be maintained.<br /><br />Some parts of the volcano Hecates Tholus does look young. Also what about the small cones near the martian arctic?<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[3488]

Hi there all.<br /><br />I agree, there is still much to be learned. However it is a known fact that the sun's increase in output in its 'Autumn years' will strip away the atmosphere. <br /><br />However we are not sure that the volcanoes are actually extinct. If they are still active, & continue to be so when the sun matures, than obviously the atmosphere will be maintained.<br /><br />Some parts of the volcano Hecates Tholus does look young. Also what about the small cones near the martian arctic?<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<font color="yellow">Just what is the likelyhood of Mars becoming wetter, as the Sun gradually expands into a Red Giant? What time frame can any one give on this and for how long will Mars, if ever be temperate? And whats the most likely scenario on what the terrain will look like?(including atmosphere layers and make up.) What is the likelyhood on having the right chemical make up for life, if this ever happens? Any theories or factual answers appreciated.</font><br /><br />As the Sun becomes more luminous, I should think Mars (at least temperature wise) will be quite comfortable for perhaps a couple or few hundred million years.<br /><br />Certainly the temperatures will be such that liquid water <b>could</b> exist. Whether it <b>will</b> exist <i>on the surface</i> depends on atmospheric pressure for the most part.<br /><br />As to negative comments regarding terraforming, it most certainly can be done, and maintained in terms of tens or hundreds of millenia. On an epochal timescale, perhaps not, but a million years is a long time in terms relative to Humanity. I should think our descendants will spend a long, comfortable time on Mars.<br /><br />As far as terrain goes, I would expect to see it stay generally the same, other than the effects of erosion over time. <br /><br />It's hard to do more than generally speculate, though. There's so much we still don't know about Mars. In particular, how much CO2 and methane is locked up on and under the surface.<br /><br />Here's what we <b>do</b> know.<br /><br /><i> If all of the carbon dioxide that is being released into the atmosphere from the south polar cap is not freezing out somewhere else, and if it is not being adsorbed into the martian soil, then it must be causing the atmospheric pressure to increase. If this is so, and if one were to assume that the entire known volume of the polar cap is made of carbon dioxide that sublimes at the same rate we see today, then it could increase the martian atmospheric pressure b</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Very well put, steve.<br /><br />Terraforming a planet for a few dozen square miles of habitat, is not only ineffiecient (as you pointed out) but perhaps morally unjustifiable. What right do we have to modify a planet? What if, even if an infinitesimal chance, that some life exists and we extinguish it in terrafoming the surface? I know, Steve, that there is no evidence for that, but what if there is some chance?<br />I'd feel real bad, even if my feelings don't mean much.<br /><br />How has the terraforming of our planet gone so far?<br />So far OK, but there are all these elephants at the door. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Well said! <br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[brellis]

hi steve, glad to see you back. i always read your posts with both halves of my brain <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />where is the best place to attempt "micro-terraforming"? is the stratosphere of venus better? Could we 'float' a large habitat at earth-pressure altitude in the atmosphere around venus? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2" color="#ff0000"><em><strong>I'm a recovering optimist - things could be better.</strong></em></font> </p> </div>

 

[lysol]

I would terraform it just because we can. And what right? Side from living critters and ancient ruins...the planet is in our home system...its ours to do as we please. Make it a secondary safe heaven incase Earth explodes via death star.<br /><br />Of course this is comeing from someone who would want to see phobos and diemos "accelerated" in thier orbital decay into the planet because its going to happen anyway.

 

[lysol]

steve lighten up...I was joking.<br /><br />As far as terraforming is concerned. It's a project that can only really be effectivly done by class 2 or maybe class 1 civilizations without it taking generations to complete.<br /><br />Also there is the factor that the only real canidate for a terra-like enviroment as in walking outside and sucking in the air is venus. But the collasal engineering feat required to blow the atmosphere off out of the planets grasp would be be quite an achivement.<br /><br />Some ideas are out there, one is the grey goo effect from nano tech. But i never been a fan of pixie dust....you need good old fashion heavy industry.

 

[oscar1]

I could think of more reasons for us to physically go to Mars and to even entertain habitats there. First of all, Mars is there (like we climb mountains because they are there), and is the environment, relatively speaking, not extremely hostile to humans. Secondly, a colony on Mars would increase the chances of human survival. This would be especially so when we would award every race and every mainstream religion a place there; they would all be dependent on eachother and hence might the many differences we have here on Earth be re-evaluated as the result of the co-operation on Mars. Mars does have raw materials for construction, and we can build population centres in suitable valleys (Chrystal Palace-like sealed greenhouses).