What do you believe is at the core of gas giants?

[willpittenger]

If you vote, I suggest you explain your reasoning with a reply. Please definitely reply if you choose "Other" or "Depends On Which Planet". Thanks.<br /><span method="POST" action="/dopoll.php"></span> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[why06]

There is no choice for liquid center <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[3488]

I reckon the core of the gas giants are like terrestrial planets. Mostly silicate rock & some metal, surrounded by metallic hydrogen & so on. <br /><br />Of course a huge diamond is certainly possible, but would such a huge quantity of Carbon required to make it pose problems with current theories of planet formation???<br /><br />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080">"I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before".</font> <em><strong><font color="#000000">Linda Morabito </font></strong><font color="#800000">on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.</font></em></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://www.launchphotography.com/</font><br /><br /><font size="1" color="#000080">http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearth</font></p><p><font size="1" color="#000080">http://web.me.com/meridianijournal</font></p> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Degenerate matter, primarily originally hydrogen, is at the core of Jupiter and Saturn.<br /><br />At extremely high external pressures and density, constituent particles are forced close enough together that they are not clearly separated by position, and thus placed them in different energy levels according to the Pauli exclusion principle.<br /><br />Hydrogen becomes a new form of matter, sometimes called 'metallic hydrogen', where a degenerate ionic lattice of hydride and protons will form. It is conductive, like a metal.<br /><br />Other elements (metals, He, Si, O) will also become degenerate. It's a different state of matter, completely unlike anything we are conventionally familar with. There is no "silicate core" or "liquid iron core" as such. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[why06]

Why would hydrogen be in the core. Since it is the lightest element should not it diffuse to the top? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Although what happens at those pressures and temperatures is still rather speculative, since we can't duplicate (or even be sure what are) the conditions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[nexium]

I think we can duplicate probable conditions near the center of Jupiter, briefly, but the affect on the measurements is speculative.<br />We don't know a lot about the chemistry of degenerate materials ie Are iron and heavier elements soluable in licquid metalic hydrogen at 25,000 degrees c and the pressure near the center of Jupiter? Is Jupiter really that hot near the center? Neil

 

[silylene old]

There is no rocky core, because minerals are composed of covalent and ionic bonds, and conventional covalent and ionic bonds cannot exist under those external pressures or temperature.<br /><br />The core matter is degenerate, which is another state of matter. Not gas, liquid or solid or plasma or even a true metal. Matter is degenerate when the opposing pressure (the pressure which opposes further contraction and densification) is primarily the degeneracy pressure, which derives from the Pauli exclusion principle. Since the Pauli principle prohibits close proximity particles from occupying the same quantum states (energy levels), as volume is reduced and the particles are brought ever closer, more energy has to be supplied to bring them to every higher energy levels.<br /><br />Particles at such high energy levels cannot form chemical bonds, hence there are no minerals, or metals in the conventional understanding of the word. Degenerate matter can conduct electrical charge, so if that is your only definition of a 'metal', then feel free to call it 'metallic'.<br /><br />A large body of experimental work with diamond anvil cells, plus 50 years of highly developed chemical physics theory supports the existence of degenerate matter at these pressures. This really isn't controversial at all, but rather is accepted broadly among the scientific community. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Thanx for a clear explanation.<br />MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[logicize]

I voted rocky core.<br /><br />According to this:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn<br /><br />It's correct.<br /><br />I would have liked to have seen chocolate nougat as an option though.

 

[why06]

Does degenerate matter look or function like a liquid? <br />If not what does is behave most like. Gas, liquid, solid, or plasma? Any guesses? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[silylene old]

The atoms exist in excited states as degenerate matter, in which the Pauli degeneracy pressure equals the gravitational pressure.<br /><br />It isn't the kind of matter we are commonly familiar with. The atoms aren't chemically bonded using shared valence shell electrons. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Well then those two Wiki articles you have cited are unfortunately misinformed.<br /><br />And here is a Wiki article saying Jupiter and Saturn cores are degenerate matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen<br />Metallic hydrogen is a degenerate matter form of hydrogen. <br /><br />And here is another Wiki article about the core of Jupiter being degenrate matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_star<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> At low density (planets and the like) the object is held up by electromagnetic forces. These forces constrain electrons to occupy orbitals around nuclei, which give rise to chemical bonds and thus allow stiff objects such as rocks to exist. These objects are so stiff that they do not compress very much when mass is added. Adding more (cold) mass therefore makes the object larger: radius increases with mass. This agrees with our intuitions.<br /><br />Eventually a point is reached where the central pressure is so large that all matter is ionized so that the electrons are stripped from the nuclei and move freely. No chemical bonds now exist to hold up the object. This point is reached at the center of the planet Jupiter. Add more mass to Jupiter and the increase of pressure is smaller than the increase of gravity, so the radius will decrease with increasing mass. The object will shrink!<br /><br /> <b>The largest cold mass in the universe</b><br /> <br />A planet such as Jupiter has about the largest volume possible for a cold mass. Add mass to Jupiter and the planet's volume, somewhat counter-intuitively, becomes smaller. The central density now is large enough that the free electrons become degenerate. This term means that the electrons have fallen into the lowest-energy states available. Since electrons are fermions, they obey the Pauli exclusion principle</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I would have troubles ruling out a metallic hydrogen layer. Metallic hydrogen only exists under select conditions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Matter in the earth's core is at too low of a pressure to become degenerate matter, and is normal matter. Saturn barely qualifies. <br /><br />Perhaps Jupiter has a silicate-rich outer core, where the pressure is less, and matter is not degenerate, and capable of forming covalent bonds. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[logicize]

Wouldn't the state of atoms at the estimated pressure of Jupiters core all be theory? Unless we can verify the pressure and reproduce it to see the results, it's all just educated guesses. We've all seen how many educated guesses get turned on their head when the facts come out.

 

[lukman]

must be rocky core, enough gravity to hold the gases, else will escape into space. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Existance of degenerate matter is very solid theory (pardon the pun!) developed and verified within the field known as condensed matter physics over the past 75 years. An overwhelming majority of physicists and chemists believe that quantum chemistry, the Pauli Exclusion principle, the theory of chemical bonding, degeneracy, band theory, etc are correct and valid. Also, an enormous amount of experimental work has been done which supports the quantum chemical description theory of matter and bonding and the validity of the Pauli exclusion principle. Wigner won the Nobel in 1963 on the subject of condensed matter physics at extreme pressure!<br /><br />Also there is a lot of experimental work using diamond anvil vices to look at the properties of materials under enormous pressure (sometimes over />2.5 million atmospheres of pressure), and the transition from normal matter into degenerate matter. Even higher pressures can be reached by inducing shock waves shock wave within the anvil. Google this if you want to learn more. You can find literally thousands of refereed journal papers about experimental work on the transition to degeneracy in matter (various elements) at enormous pressures.<br /><br />Attached is a graph of the first demonstration of degenerate hydrogen, in 1995 (or so) at Lawrence Livermore Lab. And as you can see from the excerpted text below, experimental results were a bit different than that predicted by ab initio theory, which is why experiments are necessary!<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Our Results<br />As shown in Figure 2, we found that from 0.9 to 1.4 Mbar, resistivity in the shocked fluid decreases almost four orders of magnitude (i.e., conductivity increases); from 1.4 to 1.8 Mbar, resistivity is essentially constant at a value typical of that of liquid metals. Our data indicate a continuous transit</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>

 

[silylene old]

Modern concept of the core of Jupiter, based on experimental and theoretical studies of condensed matter at ultra high pressures, from the reference cited above: <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><em><font color="#0000ff">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -</font></em> </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center"><font color="#0000ff"><em>I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function.</em></font> </div> </div>