What is beyond

[atticus808]

the universe?<br />while the universe is expanding<br />what is beyond the universe?<br />empty space? can you even imagine that?<br />it seems so weird to me

 

[harmonicaman]

The entire universe is contained within a <i>Singularity,</i> an infinitesimally small point of time and space. Our universe is expanding towards the interior of this Singularity.<br /><br />Note that the Singularity itself is not expanding outward because there is nothing for it to expand into, only the time and space within the singularity is expanding.<br /><br />This viewpoint is borne out by direct observation. When we look out into the universe, in every direction, we are viewing back in time and space towards the Singularity of our beginning. <br /><br />Note that every other point in the universe also sees itself as being the oldest and most central location in the universe - this is because our universe still acts very much like a Singularity, only the time and space within are expanding.<br /><br />Another clue that we exist entirely within this Singularity is our Laws of Physics, including the implications of E=mc².<br /><br />There is no point of reference to describe something that is "Outside" the Singularity which is our universe.<br /><br />I do agree with you that the whole concept is mind-boggling and very weird, but that nonetheless is our universe!

 

[siriusmre]

"When we look out into the universe, in every direction, we are viewing back in time and space towards the Singularity of our beginning."<br /><br />Are we really? How do we "know" that? Further, how do we "know" that the universe is expanding? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alkalin]

Nope.<br /><br />What you describe comes from just a math equation.<br /><br />What about cause and effect for a change and a few ideas in philosophy??? The universe as we are beginning to know it is far more complex than any simple math could hope to ever describe.<br />

 

[harmonicaman]

<b>Sirius -</b><br /><br />The farther we look out into our universe (and back in time), distant galaxies are observed to have an increasing amount of <i>Redshift</i> ^(1.) The simplest explanation for this observation is that the universe is expanding - and recent measurements of the <i>Redshift</i> seem to indicate that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate!<br /><br />If this expansion was not accelerating, I think the night sky would be much brighter! Since the acceleration is increasing over time, the beginning of our universe has now <i>Redshifted</i> so much that it is no longer in our visible spectrum - we can no longer see this light. <br /><br />(1.) <b>Doppler and Cosmological Redshift</b><br /><br />The <b>Doppler Redshift</b> results from the relative motion of the light emitting object and the observer. If the source of light is moving away from you then the wavelength of the light is stretched out, i.e., the light is shifted towards the red. These effects, individually called the blueshift, and the redshift are together known as doppler shifts. The shift in the wavelength is given by a simple formula: <br /><br /><i>Observed wavelength - Rest wavelength)/(Rest wavelength = v/c</i> <br /><br />So long as the velocity v is much less than the speed of light. A relativistic doppler formula is required when velocity is comparable to the speed of light. <br /><br />The <b>Cosmological Redshift</b> is a redshift caused by the expansion of space itself. The wavelength of light increases as it traverses the expanding universe between its point of emission and its point of detection by the same amount that space has expanded during the crossing time.<br /><br /><b>Alkalin -</b><br /><br />I agree that the universe is more complicated than any mere mathematical formula can fathom (but we're trying nonetheless) and I would submit this philosophical view: The expansion of the universe was initiated when God lit a match while looking for a gas leak... <br />

 

[siriusmre]

"The universe as we are beginning to know it is far more complex than any simple math could hope to ever describe."<br /><br />I don't think that that is completely true. Actually, I think quite the opposite. What has made the universe seem so complex is the hodge-podge of ad hoc add-ons to conventional gravitational theory used to explain many of the more exotic new observations. When one tries to account for all space phenomena using only gravity, then the equations do tend to run over the edge of what is "real." One must resort to "deus ex machina," mathematical blank checks like "black holes" and "dark matter."<br /><br />Perhaps astronomers are just using the wrong equations... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[harmonicaman]

I think Einstein has it right:<br /><br /><i>If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.<br /><br />As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.</i><br /> <br /><b> - Albert Einstein</b> (1879 - 1955)<br /><br />I think I should rephrase my statement... It may be possible to describe the universe in a mathematical equation; but we will never be able to fathom it.

 

[siriusmre]

Are we SURE that redshift equals distance? What if it doesn't? What about the "Fingers of God"? <br /><br />That idea about the universe starting when God lit a match to look for a gas leak is pretty good. I prefer to suppose that we can fractally extrapolate that if all thoughts are electrical impulses, then perhaps the universe is a thought in the Mind of God. All other phenomena are holographic/fractal "spin-offs" of the original thought. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alkalin]

Harmonicaman,<br /><br />“I think I should rephrase my statement... It may be possible to describe the universe in a mathematical equation; but we will never be able to fathom it.”<br /><br />Certain principles such as total mass or total energy or total dimension, and how these relate to time may eventually be merely a math equation. But events that involve cause and effect that relate to the very beginning, I think not.<br /><br />Doppler was the only known possible cause of the red shift until about the mid eighties, when correlation was studied in the lab and shown to cause red shifting as well. <br /><br />“The expansion of the universe was initiated when God lit a match while looking for a gas leak...” <br /><br />Ah, and math such as two and too go boink in the head. Sorry if I’m so light in the head. Maybe I’ve stared at the dark too much. Hey, lighten up, I’m just kidding around. Don’t mind if I do!! Beware, some day I could get serious when a light bulb goes off. Oops, did I really day that? <br /><br />SeriusMre,<br /><br />I agree that math is useful, but it still does not accurately describe the beginning of all things and cannot yet. Someday that may change. And as far as Halton Arp and his work is concerned I also agree. There is a lot of evidence contrary to current cosmology.<br /><br />The red shift is not Doppler caused, in my view, and so equations of beginnings and whatnot are now simply using wrong numbers.<br /><br />BB theory has predicted nothing with any accuracy yet. This should tell you something.<br /><br />Atticus808,<br /><br />Curiosity is a good thing, but there is nothing to worry about or question in regard to the unknown. God will take care of the things we may never fathom.<br /><br />How can a question such as “where are the edges of the universe” or “what is outside the universe” or “what existed before the universe” be answered? Only a creator being would be able to answer this type question accurately. Based on the scant information w

 

[nojocujo]

you mentioned the doppler redshift and the cosmological redshift but you left out the gravitational redshift (local from a static mass) is there a intrinsic galactic redshift (again local) and can there be a gravitational wave redshift associated with a cataclysmic implosion/explosion for light created within a bubble of expanding spacetime the result of the implosion/explosion? Is the cosmological redshift indicating a flattening of spacetime the same as if matter were gobbling up and flattening spacetime in a contracting universe?

 

[unlearningthemistakes]

as of now, gravity was not yet proven as particle- gravitons...<br /><br />gravitational redshift/blueshift follows...<br /><br />but that is interesting because a mass coming to us would pose intensified effects of it's gravity as it comes closer and closer... blueshift eh?<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pain is inevitable</p><p>suffering is optional </p> </div>

 

[harmonicaman]

Almost all galaxies are redshifted because of the Hubble expansion of the universe. Only a handful of the most nearby galaxies are <b>blue-shifted.</b> In addition to the apparent motion imparted to galaxies due to universal expansion, individual galaxies also have their own intrinsic motions. <br /><br />This is not because each galaxy is in motion irrespective of the universe's expansion, and each galaxy has its own unique velocity. <br /><br />Generally, that velocity is some hundreds of kilometers per second. In regions close enough to our own galaxy where the Hubble expansion results in less outward expansion than this, the galaxy's peculiar velocities (if they are large enough and sufficiently towards us) can overcome that expansion, resulting in a <b>blue-shift.</b> <br /><br />There are in all about 100 known galaxies with <b>blue-shifts</b> out of the billions of galaxies in the observable universe. Most of these <b>blue-shifted</b> galaxies are in our own local group, and are all in orbit about each other. Most are also dwarf galaxies, although the Andromeda Galaxy, M31, is also a <b>blue-shifted</b> galaxy; as you can logically imagine since it is on a collision course with the Milky Way! <br /><br />January 1999, Dave Kornreich; Cornell University<br />

 

[nojocujo]

I was speaking hypothetically where if matter e.g. blackhole ate not only matter but spacetime (we know it is a spacetime contraction in and of itself) depending on the consumption of the bh of spacetime could in a contracting universe still be stretched where it would give the intervening light between bh's a redshift tricking us to believe that the universe was expanding. It would also seeming give you the effects where every point might appear from its' own perspective the center of the universe.

 

[neutron_star69]

<font color="red">huh?</font>

 

[newtonian]

Atticus808 - This simple illustration may help you mentally visualize our expanding universe:<br /><br />(Isaiah 40:22) 22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze. . .<br /><br />Actual scientific observation, plus computer simulations of our universe, show that our universe is indeed similar in appearance to a stretching fine gauze, with its threads and filaments - and more if you examine the illustration in detail.<br /><br />As to what is outside of our universe, you would need to address the cause of the origin of our universe - and remember both the principle of cause and effect and the law of conservation of matter and energy.<br /><br />Many scientists considering this do hypothesize many other universes, and this is also the Biblical model which refers to heaven often in plural.<br /><br />For one example:<br /><br />(1 Kings 8:27) 27 “But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you. . .<br /><br />This may be referring to a much larger universe (heaven of the heavens) containing our universe and other universes.<br /><br />Some astronomers, notably Loeb, postulate that our universe is expanding into contact with another universe.<br /><br />We do not know, of course - but it is possible.

 

[neutron_star69]

isnt it a crazy thought to think that our universe coulbe be only 1 of billions out there? i wanna go to another one to see what it is like

 

[9908]

I'm having a hard enough time fathoming that that a globe of hot gas is illuminating a big yellow round rock circling around the big blueish watery rock we are on

 

[neutron_star69]

what are you talkin about?

 

[9908]

Sure I would like to know what another universe is like. How much different can it be than the one we are in though? we know so little about the one we are in.<br />The point I was making was there is so much more to learn about everything. And what a miracle everything is that we are currently aware of. Like you say, our sun and moon are just tillionths and tillionths and tillionths of what there is out there in the material universe....and the probability is that there are trillions and trillions and trillions of other universes beyond our own

 

[neutron_star69]

that is the most overwhelming thought ive ever had.