What is the future of earth and Sun?

newtonian · Feb 25, 2006

I hope posters will compare what I believe with what is scientifically known - and, by so doing, compare Biblical astronomy with current scientific theories, observations and knowledge. I do, btw, believe Biblical astronomy is accurate. The Bible says the meek shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5) and live forever upon it (Psalms 37:29). However, many astronomers predict earth will be destroyed by fire (as do many religions - compare 2 Peter 3:7) when the sun goes red giant, if not before by a comet or asteroid. I had assumed the Bible teaches the sun will shine forever. However, here are some quotes that may indicate otherwise: (Job 9:7-8) . . .He is saying to the sun that it should not shine forth, And around stars he puts a seal, 8 Stretching out the heavens by himself. . . (Psalm 89:36-37) . . .His seed itself will prove to be even to time indefinite, And his throne as the sun in front of me. 37 As the moon it will be firmly established for time indefinite, And [as] a faithful witness in the skies.” . . . The Hebrew word translated "time indefinite" is "ohlam" and literally means "hidden or concealed time." Sometimes it means forever, but other times it simply means a time period whose end is not known - hence time indefinite or concealed time. However, David's seed will be forever. There are many other Scriptures - for later posts - but the point is that while the sun will remain forever, it may well be changed. One more Scripture will suffice for now: (Hebrews 1:10-12) 10 And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will

alokmohan · Feb 26, 2006

Request dont mix religion with science.

newtonian · Feb 26, 2006

alokmohan - Note my user name. Isaac Newton did extensive research and writing in both scientific research and Biblical research. In the process he confirmed that the earth is hung upon nothing as Job 26:7 states, and discovered what that "nothing" is, namely: gravity. Historically when popular scientific theories contradict the Bible further research shows the Bible was accurate and the theory wrong. E.g. Aristotle's eternal universe or the more recent Steady State theory vs. Genesis 1:1 which states heaven and earth had a beginning. On the future of earth and sun there is also some conflict between popular scientific theories and models and Biblical interpretations. As Galileo noted, the two sources are true (Science and the Bible), but interpretations (such as the church's geocentic model of the universe) are often wrong. In this respect I am hoping posters will step back and analyze scientific observations and knowledge and question popular models and try to determine the correct interpretations of scientific observations. Since you prefer to not mix religion and science, why not limit your posts on this thread to purely scientific content. For example - how do you feel about the current popular models for stellar evolution? Do you agree that there is zero mixing between core and surface on our sun on scales of billions of years - and if so, why? Or have you considered my model that submits there is slight mixing with a stirring time of about 1 billion years. This would, of course, effect the future of sun and earth. It would delay our sun's entry into red giant phase as it will take longer to burn this slowly mixed outer layer hydrogen as it permeates to the core by this slow stirring. It would also change earth's future orbit further out than popular models assume, since the sun at red giant phase will have lost more mass than assumed. Compare ear

kyle_baron · Feb 26, 2006

This would, of course, effect the future of sun and earth. It would delay our sun's entry into red giant phase as it will take longer to burn this slowly mixed outer layer hydrogen as it permeates to the core by this slow stirring. It would also change earth's future orbit further out than popular models assume, since the sun at red giant phase will have lost more mass than assumed. Agreed, but in the end, no matter how you look at it, this world is going to get burn't up by our sun, by turning into a red giant, and evaporating all the water from the earth (several billion years in the future). Revelation also speaks of this FACT. Rev.21.1: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea." This is a literal statement. IMHO the new heaven and new earth are another dimension (string theory). The only question I have is, does the old earth spiral into the sun (red giant) and get totally consumed? Or will it be like a dead moon orbiting the sun (white dwarf) for eternity? I've read arguements for both cases in various astronomical periodicals. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

newtonian · Feb 27, 2006

kyle_baron - With all due respect, those of our faith consider Revelation to be highly symbolic. For many reasons, notably the introduction to the book: (Revelation 1:1) 1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, It is, of course, the phrase "presented in signs" that alerts the reader to expect signs and symbols in this book, and these abound - if you like, I can consider this in detail with you in another section - perhaps the phenomena section. It should be noted that taken literally to mean a new planet would contradict other Bible verses. This is an indication that interpretation is incorrect. The same goes for interpreting scientific observations - if the interpretation contradicts another valid scientific observation, the interpretation (or the corresponding interpretation, or both) is wrong. The Bible clearly states that righteous mankind will live forever UPON the earth: (Psalm 37:29) 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it. The earth can be made new without being destroyed. See my above quote from Hebrews which refers to a drastic change that is comparable to perishing but is not actually destruction but simply drastic change. In Revelation 21 the change is, of course, positive. Verse 4 shows death will be no more! Verse 5 states: (Revelation 21:5) 5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.. . . Making all things new does not require everything be destroyed and recreated - compare remodeling or renovating a house - see Hebrews 3:4. One example of how God can make this earth new, through his holy spirit, or invisible intelligently directed energy

newtonian · Feb 27, 2006

kyle_baron - can you please post more information or links on this part of your post: "The only question I have is, does the old earth spiral into the sun (red giant) and get totally consumed? Or will it be like a dead moon orbiting the sun (white dwarf) for eternity? I've read arguements for both cases in various astronomical periodicals." I also saw some of these but the links were lost at the last SDC crash. You all - Can any of you post links or information on both types of models, namely: 1. Earth is consumed by our sun at red giant phase. 2. Earth is not consumed because of more distant orbit but is burned by our sun in red giant phase. Or any other variant model.

nexium · Feb 28, 2006

I think the Bible is more accurate than our science books, but let's not burden the Bible with extreme perfection. A few billion years is close enough to forever for most purposes. My pesonel opinion is that convection (and other mechanisms) in our Sun brings fresh hydrogen to the core, thus delaying the Red Giant stage for perhaps 10 billion years. An infalling of hyrogen could delay red Giant a few billion more years. Do we know for sure that less than a trillion tons of hydrogen falls into the Sun per century? If our 4 gas giant planets (or equivelent) fell into the Sun, 20 billion years before red giant may be about right. Neil

nexium · Feb 28, 2006

As I typed in the other thread, our sun may have a puny Red Giant phase, swelling just a little and lasting centuries instead of a million years, such that damage to Earth is small, and technically advanced humans and reserected beings can survive. Even if we have to leave for a little season, we can return and make the cinder Earth as we choose with our technology. Neil

CalliArcale · Mar 1, 2006

With all due respect, Newtonian, the Bible is so open to interpretation that comparing "Biblical astronomy" to current scientific theories is of academic interest at best. It has little to no scientific value and thus really doesn't belong in Ask the Astronomer. I know we let those kinds of threads sit in here in the past, but I'm not so sure we should've been doing that. This sounds far more like a religious discussion than a scientific discussion. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

newtonian · Mar 1, 2006

Calli - Well, why not post in response to my scientific questions - e.g. my request to kyle_baron to post links to the variant models for earth's orbit at red giant phase? I disagree strongly with you on the Bible being of scientific value. That is fine - just so you know that my studies of the Bible and science have shown harmony. However, discussing that would make this thread the type of discussion you don't think belongs in this section. That is fine. As I said above, and bears repeating: why not honor my request to post links (or at least information) on the variant scientific models rather than on what you don't want discussed here????

kyle_baron · Mar 4, 2006

kyle_baron - With all due respect, those of our faith consider Revelation to be highly symbolic. I'll agree up to a point, but to make a blanket statement that all of Revelation is highly symbolic, is just not true. "THEN I SAW a new heaven and a new earth. This is a literal statement, not symbolic. (Revelation 1:1) 1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, I've never heard it (slaves) translated that way before. Is that a translation from (Greek?), or is it your interpretation of the translation? I've ALWAYS read it (slaves) as followers. After his death on the cross, Jesus's Ressurection into heaven (another dimension-String Theory) is a perfect example of the equivalency of mass to energy transformation (E=Mc2). Then he came back for 40 days and (doubting) Thomas stuck his finger in Jesus's wound, then Jesus left us again to be in heaven with the father. This is a second example of him changing his mass to energy. He did the process twice! The Bible clearly states that righteous mankind will live forever UPON the earth: (Psalm 37:29) 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it. The earth can be made new without being destroyed. See my above quote from Hebrews which refers to a drastic change that is comparable to perishing but is not actually destruction but simply drastic change. You're still trying to save the original old earth (surface). Sorry, it passed away (Gone, Kaput, outahere) as stated in scripture. In order to have another dimension of earth, you have to have the original earth in some form (a dead moon is acceptable) in order that the old earth and new earth occupy the same space. It can't fall into the sun and become part of the sun, because then it's not the earth <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rfoshaug · Mar 4, 2006

The future of Earth and Sun: The sun will start to grow larger and more orange. Surface temperatures decrease, but the temperature on Earth increase because the Sun becomes so much larger in the sky. Mercury and Venus will actually become a part of the Sun. Maybe Earth too, but probably Earth will stay just outside of the Sun. Earth will become totally and permanently inhabitable and everything on it will die. The only way to survive is by not being here - if the beings residing here sometime between now and then find a way of moving to another world - and by that I mean another star system. But remember how far into the future this is. We're talking about billions of years. There will be no humans anymore then. None of the species of life that live on Earth today will exist in a couple of billions of years. Everything in our human world will be long forgotten and David's seed will be lost forever. In a billion years nobody will remember the languages, cultures, religions, countries or lives of today. Everything will be gone. This is not a pessimistic view - actually it's quite optimistic. The worst that can happen is that life (and human kind) for some reason stops evolving at their current state. The only way for this to happen is that we all die for some reason. If life survives, it will change as it has always been constantly changing. But either way, human kind will not exist in a billion years. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ----------------------------------My minds have many opinions </div>

alokmohan · Mar 5, 2006

May I request you to delete this thread .I full endose what you say.We may discuss astronomy. Last ppost is relevant.

alokmohan · Mar 5, 2006

Thank God this post is on astronomy.

newtonian · Mar 11, 2006

Kyle_baron - This should be taken to Free Space. Not the thread, but our discussion concerning Revelation, etc. Not to ignore your question, though: It is a literal translation from the Greek. And Revelation is not all symbolic - it simply contains an abundance of signs and symbols. My favorite translation says "presented it in signs..' Compare: King James Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: The Greek word translated "signify" or "signs" is "semaino" derivied from the Greek "sema" - a "mark." Hence sign, signify, symbol, etc. You are correct that many translations do not translate semaino as "signs," or signify. But when Revelation chapter 12 talks about a dragon drawing a third of the stars from heaven - do you take that literally or look for the meaning of these symbols? Please start a thread in Free Space on this and simply let me know on this thread when you have done that. For this thread I would like to consider the scientific evidence for the future of earth and sun. Like - if you can link to variant models for earth's future orbit during our sun's red giant phase.

newtonian · Mar 11, 2006

alokmohan - Do I detect a sense of humor?

newtonian · Mar 11, 2006

rhoshaug - OK, how much will earth's temperature increase in this scenario you posted where earth remains outside the sun? Can you link to a source for this model? I had heard the estimate of 900 degrees F, compared with the red giant solar surface temperature of 3,000 Kelvins. Obviously, if earth's carbonates are converted to CO2 by this heat, and not converted to biomass for food and future use as fuel, then earth will have a runaway greenhous effect like Venus has now. Of course, I suggest we make sure carbonates do not end up as CO2 in the atmosphere but rather converted into carbohydrates by life, and hydrocarbons (and compost) by decay. I have a much more optimistic outlook - that instead of ruining the earth as mankind is now doing - that we could preserve the earth in the future! It is certainly not beyond human technology to make sure plants capture CO2 for all sorts of uses instead of becoming a greenhouse gas and accelerating global warming. See my thread on surviving red giant phase. On your suggestion of another star system - do you have one in mind?

5billionyearslater · Apr 8, 2007

Mixing Religion with Science is impractical at best, only made worse by your use of quotes from the Bible.

nexium · Apr 8, 2007

The Sun has a diameter of about 1.5 million kilometers at present. If it increases to 150 million kilometers as a red giant, it will swallow Mercury and Venus and almost Earth, which will likely be hotter than 900 degrees f. A slightly smaller red giant sun would produce Earth surface temperatures of about 900 degrees f, provided the carbon dioxide remains at the present 0.037%. Unfortunately carbohydrates decompose to water carbon dioxide and free carbon above about 300 degrees f. Calcium carbonate is limestone or marble. Sodium carbonate is washing soda. I don't know a way (nor a micro-organism) to convert either to carbohydrates. Neil

kyle_baron · Apr 9, 2007

The Sun has a diameter of about 1.5 million kilometers at present. If it increases to 150 million kilometers as a red giant, it will swallow Mercury and Venus and almost Earth Only Mercury will be engulfed by the sun. Venus and Earth will survive as dead cinders. From The Astronomy Cafe p.10 "As the sun evolves into a red giant, it grows to a luminosity of 2300x it's present value, and a size of 150x it's current extent, shedding about 27% of it's mass and engulfing/incinerating the planet Mercury. It continues to evolve up the Asymptotic Giant Branch and experiences at least 4 thermal pulses. After the 1st one, the sun's size has swollen to 213x its present size, but a mass of only 60% of it's current mass, the orbits of the planets have crept outward from their present distances. VENUS IS NOW LOCATED ABOUT 1.22x FURTHER FROM THE SUN THAN WHERE EARTH IS NOW. EARTH HAS MOVED TO ABOUT 1.7X FURTHER OUT, SO NEITHER OF THESE PLANETS ARE ENGULFED BY THE SUN. The sun has reached a PEAK luminosity of 5,300x it's current rate after the 4th thermal pulse." The author is a professional astronomer, who obviously knows what he's talking about. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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