When Dr. Who reaches 12th regeneration...

[Leovinus]

will the show end when the 13th Doctor retires? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[zavvy]

The BBC will come up with a really good excuse for the Timelord. I guarantee it...

 

[CalliArcale]

Yep. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Heck, it's not as if that's stopped the Master! According to series canon, the Master as portrayed by Roger Delgado (the guy who originated the role) was his thirteenth incarnation. As he could not regenerate any more, he became extremely decrepit as he worked to prolong his life. He tried to steal the Eye of Harmony, then the Keepership of Traken, then resorted to stealing the body of Tremas (a native of Traken). In the 1996 Fox movie, it was probably this incarnation of the Master that was inexplicably executed by the Daleks (who even more inexplicably allowed the Doctor to transport his remains back to Gallifrey). But the Master's tremendously strong will allowed him to survive, and he stole the body of a human named Bruce. He was then sucked into the Eye of Harmony. It remains to be seen how he'll return in the new series, though advance rumors about casting indicate he may take over a couple of other people's bodies.<br /><br />This isn't very in character for the Doctor, of course, but it does indicate that running out of regenerations isn't enough to foil a determined scriptwriter. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />One possible solution comes from "The Five Doctors". The High Council sucked up their pride and actually <i>hired</i> the Master to go rescue the Doctor (after previous attempts failed miserably). If the Master had succeeded in his mission and returned to the Citadel, his reward would have been a complete new regenerative cycle. Something similar could probably be arranged if the Doctor ran out of lives. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[zavvy]

Well, with Sci-Fi, anything's possible..<br /><br />

 

[Leovinus]

Well I wondered this because I was watching old video tapes (found while cleaning the garage) and came across the episodes where the Master is a decaying hulk. Now if that happens to the Doctor, he should just kill himself rather than go through that at the end. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[zavvy]

<font color="yellow">he should just kill himself rather than go through that at the end.</font><br /><br />You mean like the Cathars?

 

[crowing]

Yes that's the beauty of sci-fi,you can continually up-date the plots and scenarios as the show requires!

 

[izlear]

Well, an interesting little continuity twist is that (although it has been made standard throughout the history and mythology) there is evidence that says that the first doctor may not have been the first doctor. The second doctor said when that this was not the first time he had changed. But thats really just continuity flaw. I acually like the idea of him being in his 9th regeneration.

 

[CalliArcale]

Absolutely right, izlear.<br /><br />Actually, there are bigger contradictions about that. In "The Brain of Morbius", when the Doctor has the mind-bending contest with Morbius, he is forced to regress through his memories. Stock footage is shown of the Third Doctor, the Second Doctor, the First Doctor, and then various members of the production team get to have cameos as previous Doctors. The assumption was that there had been many Doctors. In fact, the Second Doctor at one point made the assertion that Time Lords were virtually immortal "barring accidents".<br /><br />This is contradicted by "The Deadly Assassin", which is in fact the episode that Leovinus refers to above. It's one of my personal favorites, because it's a darned good murder mystery. But it infuriated many fans when it first came out because of how substantially it changed what we know about the Doctor. Most significantly, it gave Time Lords a limited (albeit extremely long) lifespan. Twelve regenerations, thirteen lives. Castellan Spandrell points out that the Master had nothing to lose by commiting suicide, since it was the end of his regenerative cycle. Ultimately, the new information did win out, mainly because it was so explicitly stated, and later episodes reinforced it quite strongly. Of course, this gave the production team a bit of a challenge with the character of the Master, but hey, if the character is really popular, there's always a way to bring them back. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Just look at Davros, who isn't even a Time Lord!<br /><br />Late in the series, writers started to drop additional hints, laying the groundwork for the Doctor to be something even more. I didn't like that; making the Doctor too powerful really paints the writers into a corner, and also makes it harder to see the "mad uncle" persona (as Elizabeth Sladen, who played Sarah Jane Smith, often described the Doctor). In particular, there are bits that were edited out of "Silver Nemesis" and "Remem <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[Leovinus]

Hmm, I think I know Dr. Who's real name: He is Dr. Rassilon. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

That's quite possibly what they were hinting at, though evidence in "Lungbarrow" suggests not -- that the Doctor was actually a contemporary of Rassilon, not Rassilon himself. But a very important contemporary. The two big names in Gallifreyan legends are Rassilon and Omega. "Lungbarrow" offers a third, making a neat trinity -- Rassilon, Omega, and the Other, who was never named. Supposedly, the Doctor is the Other. But I don't buy it. It just doesn't work for me. And apparently it didn't work for the script editor either, because he rejected "Lungbarrow".<br /><br />Its replacement, "Ghost Light", does have a lot in common with "Lungbarrow", particularily the eerie atmosphere of a family trapped and going slowly insane in a strange house. But pretty much everything else was discarded. "Ghost Light" doesn't take place on Gallifrey, doesn't involve the Doctor's family, and doesn't really get into any of the mysteries of the Doctor's past.<br /><br />In some respects, it's a pity. Some of the stuff introduced in "Lungbarrow" was silly, and in some cases played merry hell with established continuity. But some of it was interesting. The book describes a system of Time Lord families, which always have forty-five members, and who live in sentient Houses constructed during the time of Rassilon. The Houses each contain a genetic Loom. This Loom contains a datacore with the family's genetic material stored on it in digital form, according to algorithms devised eons ago by Rassilon, Omega, and the Other. The Gallifreyans mysteriously became sterile when they became Time Lords (supposedly because they were renouncing worship of the Pythia, who cursed them) eons ago, and the Looms were the solution to that problem. When a Family loses one of its members (who regard one another as cousins), the Loom is activated to create a Replacement. They are not allowed to have more than 45 members at any time to prevent overpopulation. Each House is governed by a Kithriarch, a <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[izlear]

Funny thing is that the doctor's real name is acually almost revealed in an episode... The final Key to time episode I think...<br /><br />I have an issue of Doctor Who In Vision that is from season 25 and had a short story about a previous incounter with Lady Painfort. The story basicly pointed to the doctor as the other, and it also put Lady painfort as a member of the sisterhood. She was acually at one time morbiouses mistress.

 

[izlear]

If I am not mistaken the other is mentioned in state of dcay (I could be wrong) in the Tardis Databank

 

[Leovinus]

What was his granddaughter's last name? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[izlear]

It was foreman, but it was a fake name, It came from a sighn on the totters lane junk yard wich read I. E. Foreman

 

[jmilsom]

What is to prevent the Doctor travelling back in time and preventing one of his accidents thereby gaining a regeneration in the process? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>If I am not mistaken the other is mentioned in state of dcay (I could be wrong) in the Tardis Databank<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Hey, thanks, izlear! Now I know what to watch tonight while my husband studies. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> I will report back tomorrow! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>What is to prevent the Doctor travelling back in time and preventing one of his accidents thereby gaining a regeneration in the process?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />The First Law of Time. It can be broken, and has been broken on the series (and quite flagrantly in the last season), but it's not wise and I don't think the Doctor would be foolish enough to try something that dramatic. If nothing else, it might make the High Council reconsider the leniency they showed as his temporal malfeasance tribunal in "The War Games". (The sentence of death was commuted to exile on Earth.)<br /><br />However.....<br /><br />Something that should be mentioned in this thread is the Valyard. Some fans like to ignore Season Twenty-Three ("The Trial of a Time Lord", with a story spanning the whole season), particularily because it got rather odd in the three-part finale, "The Ultimate Foe". This is unfortunate, but it's because the script editor (who was also scriptwriting the finale) left the project abruptly without finishing it or leaving any notes as to how he intended to wrap everything up. Pip and Jane Baker (who only wrote one story prior to that: "The Mark of the Rani") were called in to hastily assemble a conclusion, and the result played merry havoc with continuity, not to mention suspension of some fans' disbelief (including mine).<br /><br />What was revealed was this:<br /><br />The Valyard, a sinister Time Lord assigned by the High Council to serve as the prosecuting attorney in the Doctor's new trial for (again) temporal malfeasance, had gradually been revealed as part of a conspiracy. Evidence had been tampered with in the Matrix, and nobody knew how or why or who the Valyard was working for to ensure the Doctor got the death penalty this time. That's where the plot was left prior to "The Ultimate Foe". The world may never know what Eric Saward was intending to reveal, but here's what Pip and Jane Baker instea <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[izlear]

One of the reasone I think The entire trial of a time lord is "not the best work" is that Robert Holms was writing most of it and he died right in the middle of it, so once agian pip and Jane Baker tried to do their best in finnishing a script that was only partly done, Another reason, I belive some of these episodes did not work as well is because I don't feel that they were appropriate for Colin baker, to me these episodes were obviously written for the Doctor as Tom, and I feel would have worked much better.

 

[izlear]

I think one reason the Valey yard can work (although I don't like it) is that it is the same as the Watcher and similarly Cho-Chi and K'Ampo from planet of the spiders.<br /><br />If you keep up with the fan world there is a Fan Film Called Devious (the props from fatle death were made for this film) it is set with a partial regeneration between 2nd and 3rd, it even has a n apearance by John Pertwee...

 

[CalliArcale]

Oh yeah, it was Robert Holmes, not the script editor (Eric Saward)! Oops. <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /> Thanks!<br /><br />Holmes was one of the best writers, in my opinion. I think the 7th Doctor seasons suffered from a lack of Holmes, really. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

Okay, I watched "State of Decay" last night, and unless I missed it, there was no mention of the Other. I did have my daughter wanting to be read to many times during it, so it is entirely possible I missed it. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Funny thing is that the doctor's real name is acually almost revealed in an episode... The final Key to time episode I think... <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I missed this post last time through this thread. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />That would be "The Armageddon Factor", one of my many favorites. It is a little long in places (they had to stretch it a bit to cover the two extra episodes remaining in the season) but it's an interesting story. In it, we meet a Gallifreyan named Drax who has been stranded and forced to build stuff by the mysterious villain called the Shadow. (No relation to the famous radio-show masked hero!) I always liked Drax; he's basically a college-dropout self-taught engineering geek. But he went to school with the Doctor, so he knew him before he went by that name. He refers to the Doctor as "Theta Sigma", or "Thete" for short (which, due to Drax's strong Cockney accent, many Americans have misinterpreted as "Feet"). But this is apparently only the Doctor's college nickname.<br /><br />Man, it's fun discussing Doctor Who like this! <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[izlear]

I agree this is What Doctor Who Conversations should be like the only contact with Doctor Who Fans I have is on the internet. Thats no good. So I am trying to find people for a new fan network in my general area. I have flyeres all over the place trying to find fans. I just want some descent conversation.