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Where are the Aliens, their space hardware, or other hard evidence ?

May 10, 2020
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Since Roswell, why hasn't one civilian in the whole world taken a photo of an alien, a crashed alien space craft, or other hard evidence of their existence. What say you ?
 
Mar 19, 2020
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No doubt many others around the world have commented on this issue, but this is my first time. Had to give it a go!

The "alien questions" reminds me of the famous one Enrico Fermi asked some colleagues back in 1950, long after they had finished developing the nuclear weapons that would bring an end to the war against the Allies and Japan.

It is known as the "Fermi Paradox". *

Fermi was wondering about the age of the universe, and that there are so many galaxies and planets, and many are all so old. This suggested to him that aliens should have visited us by now - indeed many of them!

His question was very simple: "Where is everybody?"

At the time, I suppose, it seemed a reasonable question. Apparently not many really understood space travel and how long it might take to get to another solar system, even the closest one! But it also assumed that worlds with life were abundant throughout the galaxy, and universe. This may also be true, but the question makes some assumptions that render it more of a questionable question rather than a paradox, at least to some of us.

Make no mistake, Fermi was very clever, but I don't think he thought this out too well. It requires a number of assumptions that may not be accurate, much less attainable. To simplify things, we will assume the galaxy has a lot of worlds with life on them, so we will just consider visitors from within the Milky Way. ( No references to the ‎Drake Equation please, which argues both ways depending on how it is interpreted.)

Some of the most obvious reasons why we have not seen "everybody" is because, for any planet with life:

1) Life has not evolved sufficient intelligence to develop interstellar travel.

2) Other worlds with "intelligent life" are too distant to reach, even with interstellar travel.

3) Interstellar travel will never be attained due to insurmountable technical restraints.

Humans represent a prime example of why we are not out there along with "everybody" else, since we fall under all three categories as of today, or at anytime in the past.

Let's look at them one at a time.

1) "Life has not evolved sufficient intelligence for interstellar travel." This is not as easy to interpret as it might seem. But it has one major demand. Life on any given planet must persist long enough to attain the technical capability for interstellar travel. We can see on earth that periodic mass extinctions wipe out the most advanced forms, resetting the time-frame for interstellar travelers to evolve. Even so-called intelligent life which could develop might wipe itself out - i.e. they were not as smart as they thought they were! (Humans are working feverishly on this one right now.) So, the longevity of a species on a given world must persist for extended periods, and the civilization must be "civil" enough to allow the development of interstellar space flight. Far from a given, if earth offers even a remote clue. The periodic mass extinctions alone raises a high bar for evolution of intelligent life, much less for the long-term duration required for any "intellectual evolution" to develop interplanetary flight.

2) "Other worlds with life are too distant." While life may be common in the galaxy, it is a big galaxy. Barring Sci-Fi warp speed, there is likely a serious speed limit on space ships (no worm holes etc. please), so most aliens simply cannot cover the whole galaxy, much less a small part of it. And we are talking about visiting planets with intelligent life, who may or may not be capable of interstellar travel. That would tend to narrow down the planets one could visit quite dramatically, since many would have only primitive life, like fungi, or vicious carnivores like the dinosaurs, etc. They might not even consider humans sufficiently intelligent to bother with. Too primitive.


3) "Will never attain interstellar travel due to insurmountable technical restraints." This is where the Sci-Fi freaks have a field day with all kinds of technology to reach other planets, and even other galaxies. Back to humans (and reality). So far the fastest object we have sent into space is the New Horizons spacecraft which visited Pluto and Arrokoth. Its "final" speed to these outer worlds, which was boosted by gravitational sling-shotting, is ca. 80,000 km/h. At that rate, it would take tens of thousands of years to get to Alpha Centauri. And this is a small, minimalist spacecraft with no replicators for cheeseburgers even. In order to achieve practical interstellar travel, one would have to increase this speed by several orders of magnitude at the very least, and with a ship orders of magnitude larger and much more massive.

Multi-generational space ships would be the only likely approach to such traveling around the galaxy, and these sound rather fanciful the more generations it takes to get anywhere. Sure, long-term suspended animation helps out, but is likely another technical hurdle that may not be achievable. Essential supplies for living aliens would constitute the bulk of the mass of such a ship, replicators or not. Yet another barrier which seems very difficult to achieve.

And it would have to be an enormous ship, with its required enormous mass, and fuel, and supplies, all which would have to be accelerated to such high speeds. And this does not account for braking into another solar system, much less running into even a small rock at hyper-speed (no deflector dishes please). Collisions with unknown objects would likely wreck the trip, and there are likely to be a lot of unknown objects in your path!

Of these three possible barriers, and why "everybody hasn't visited", the third problem is likely the most difficult. Despite all the movies, and all of our self-proclaimed brilliance in space travel and technology, there is a distinct possibility that interstellar travel is simply not feasible for living creatures to achieve. It seems a very unlikely probability. As we all should know, humans have many technical barriers we simply cannot overcome.

There are of course an infinite number of things that living creatures are unlikely to achieve due simply to technical issues. So interstellar travel may simply be impossible - in a reasonable time frame - which I would arbitrarily pose as a "10 generation trip", meaning it could only takes 10 reproductive cycles for the smartest aliens to reach the closest star system known to have life. Extending that effort to more distant worlds would likely take an enormous effort from this new world, and simply might not be desirable. There are so many obstacles for such activities, the probability for visitors to our backwater planet earth seems rather low.

Fermi's original concept, that we should have seen a lot of aliens by now, is viewed by some to limit the extent of life in the galaxy and universe. But what it really does is put strict limits on any life forms that could reach us, after overcoming all the constraints. And so it would seem that the list of such aliens would be quite short, despite a likely abundance of life in the galaxy. Which is probably why we haven't seen "anybody", much less "everybody".


* https://www.seti.org/seti-institute/project/fermi-paradox
 
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Mar 19, 2020
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After mulling over the "Fermi Paradox", it has slowly dawned on me that one of my former comments likely held the key to why we haven't seen "everybody" else!

Noted before was that they have been here and simply did not find us very interesting. Possibly even dangerous!

However, one can expand on this dramatically, by simply deducing that any alien(s) sophisticated enough for jaunting around the galaxy and examining life forms throughout, would get pretty jaded after visiting a number of worlds containing life. Most of these planets are going to contain life at various stages of development - mostly primitive with ghastly predator-prey relationships. One doesn't imagine that such activities would be endlessly entertaining, especially if you have seen it many times before. It would rapidly become same-old, same-old.

One can only imagine that one or more aliens species have visited earth, on a number of occasions, over the last 500 million years or longer. Assuming they still exist, their computers (or their own brains) would have memory banks chock full of the history of this specific rock, third one from yellow dwarf A2C3, in sector XYZ.

To bring these observations to a rapid conclusion, even aliens seeing a hairy bipedal hominin carrying a club would not even elicit a raised eye-brow. assuming they had any. And at some point during approach to earth, these aliens are going to start receiving unique electromagnetic radiation they had never gotten before. They would be watching shows like Married with Children and wondering what those fool hairy bipeds have gone and done. Searching back through their data banks for the earliest bipedal transmissions, they will find out about the great wars, etc., and one specific, very worrying signal, and then many more of them, indicating the hairy beasts have developed nuclear weapons, and then, worst of all, thermonuclear weapons.

These signals alone could have prevented them from making further visits. Not that they would be worried about getting nuked, but rather from experience of other"intelligent life forms" they have seen in the past which had also turned that club into a thermonuclear nightmare. The "thermonuclear signature" would almost certainly have signaled it was no longer reasonable to visit such a planet, since the life forms that have generated such weapons in the past have always extinguished themselves. And oddly, with or without the nukes! That may be the biggest reason we don't see "everybody".

It is not because they are not out there, but rather they just don't want to see us! For all we know, humans star in some of their greatest horror movies! Why not, humans are in some of our greatest horror movies too!!!!
 
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Sometimes I marvel at your ability to get so much good sense onto our electronic paper. You posted:
"Noted before was that they have been here and simply did not find us very interesting. Possibly even dangerous!"
. . . . . . . . . and you could very well be correct. However, I still believe that interstellar distances are insuperable for travel. But, there you go, I am probably an old codger who underestimates FLT :)
 
Jan 21, 2020
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One thing I have been contemplating is what an advanced species would do when reaching a less advanced species, say on stone age level and civilization. If they decide not to interfere, would they then leave some sign or artifact to show later generations that they were once here? If so - what would a suitable artifact be and were would it be placed? Here on earth, on the moon, in some orbit close to us? Or would they rather just keep travelling on to the next world?

Or even, would they indeed interfere / make contact even with a less developed civilization if they conclude that it isn't too far away from becoming space-faring?

Regarding nukes, I for my part don't think developing them and even using them, at least in a limited way, would cause aliens to decide we weren't worthy of a visit. At least if we are still around after having developed them and aren't using them. It seems reasonable to me that a civiliszation that reaches space travel capabilities has also discovered nuclear power and experimented with it.
 
There is a fundamental question which is never addressed when this subject turns up:

Why are these species travelling around?

Are they benign, as is so often assumed?
Are they looking for new food supplies?
Are they just sightseeing? (By our standards, at enormous expense).
Are they looking to trade, if so - what?

How about a few suggestions outside the First Principle.
 

Wolfshadw

Moderator
Apr 1, 2020
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I still like the idea of our planet/solar system is nothing more that some advanced version of Sim City (Sim Star). Every once in a while you need to throw is a little destruction to shake things up. An asteroid here, an ice age there... or if you REALLY want to change things up, for only 49.95 dinkari, you can get the Cosmic Radiation expansion pack and see what new life forms take seed!

Warning! Excessive cosmic radiation may eradicate all life in your system. Be sure to have your system backed up before initiating the cosmic burst!

Or, it's a pirated game full of Viruses!
Warning! Anti-virus has detected a new strain in your system. COVID-19 appears to be encypting your file systen. Please run Anti-Virus scan immediately

Alien Son: "Dad! My planet got another virus"
Alien Dad: "Ok Son. I'll be there in a few to clean it up for you."
After a couple of planetary years tinkering, "You know son, it might be time for a system wipe and reinstall. Here's my credit card. Go ahead and buy another asteroid!"

On a more serious note, though, aside from accidentally stumbling across either us or the signals we've been sending out, there are only two reasons that I can think of as to why an alien species would be repeatedly visit our planet.

1) They're looking for resources; hydrogen/helium/water/food/"Rare Earths", slave labor, lab rats, etc... The only problem is that much of the land resources are contaminated with the "Human Virus" and they're having some difficulties coming up with a vaccine that the humans do not adapt to.

2) Much in the same way we study our ancient civilizations to get a better understanding of our past, they study us. They keep their distance so as to not influence our development, but that's like putting up a "Keep off the grass!" sign. Some kinds just can't resist.

-Wolf sends
 
Sorry. Point 2. I don't think a species of star travel would hang around watching a bunch of insects.
That is anthropomorphism run riot.

Sorry folks. The ridiculous increase in population has now made you prime destination for a new butchers shop.
 

Wolfshadw

Moderator
Apr 1, 2020
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Sorry. Point 2. I don't think a species of star travel would hang around watching a bunch of insects.
That is anthropomorphism run riot.
Heh! You don't have to agree and I respect that... but you DID ask.

Sorry folks. The ridiculous increase in population has now made you prime destination for a new butchers shop.
Not sure we've "cured" enough, just yet.

-Wolf sends
 
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Jan 14, 2020
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Since Roswell, why hasn't one civilian in the whole world taken a photo of an alien, a crashed alien space craft, or other hard evidence of their existence. What say you ?
I can think of two very good reasons why Aliens have not visited earth. One is that they do not exist. No life - of any kind. Life is far, far too complicated to be spontaneously generated. Secondly: There is no physics for faster than light travel so giving us thousands more years to work on it will not find it if the science is not there.
 
Nov 25, 2019
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At the risk of derision I will stick my oar in (!)
Lets say that we develop Quantum travel of some kind that instantaneously allows the presence of an object in two places simultaneously. Would we send our best, bravest humans... no, probably endless robot probes, and the primary mission would be observation and data collection (with the odd selfie for proof of concept and for the sceptical) rather than blowing things up and pillaging.
...although we historically have a tendency to crash our probes into things either by mistake or design.
Maybe the proof we seek in the original question will come when they make a mistake?
 
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At the risk of derision I will stick my oar in (!)
Lets say that we develop Quantum travel of some kind that instantaneously allows the presence of an object in two places simultaneously. Would we send our best, bravest humans... no, probably endless robot probes, and the primary mission would be observation and data collection (with the odd selfie for proof of concept and for the sceptical) rather than blowing things up and pillaging.
...although we historically have a tendency to crash our probes into things either by mistake or design.
Maybe the proof we seek in the original question will come when they make a mistake?
. . . . . . . . . and these robots could of course also collect food to bring home to the butchers. Could explain mysterious disappearances, in which case we may be lucky and not found to be very palatable. ;)
 
May 1, 2020
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You all need to start reading your crop circles. Thats all the evidence you need you don't need a phd in physics to understand them ,just a little reasoning.
Go on give it a go …...Think outside the box its not difficult.
 
Mar 19, 2020
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Cat, I really doubt any aliens are going to want to fool around eating life from earth. Taking a few samples of likely eatables from various locations would quickly tell them that everything is loaded with Persistent Organic Compounds like PCB and DDT, etc. and a lot of methyl mercury, arsenic. etc.

It seems likely that these nasty chemicals would be avoided by aliens no matter how sophisticated they are. If they are smart enough to get here with or without robots, they would be sure to look elsewhere for healthy food! Surely there are many other planets without the human pollutants as a food source.

If they hung around at all, it would likely be due to some entertaining aspect(s) we do that they really appreciate. Surely humor is one of the highest aspects of intelligent life! Reminds me of Billy Pilgrim in Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five, where aliens, the Tralfamadorians , kidnap him and a Hollywood starlet and put them together to mate. I believe voyeurism had something to do with it. They could be just like many humans, big on watching other people (and other things) do that sort of stuff.

And I remember something about crop circles. Oh yes, didn't Led Zeppelin put out a compilation of LPs with crop circles on the cover? Now anyone suggesting there are aliens masquerading as humans and they are among us would certainly consider Led Zeppelin prime candidates! Certainly their music is out of this world.......
 
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Cat, I really doubt any aliens are going to want to fool around eating life from earth. Taking a few samples of likely eatables from various locations would quickly tell them that everything is loaded with Persistent Organic Compounds like PCB and DDT, etc. and a lot of methyl mercury, arsenic. etc.

It seems likely that these nasty chemicals would be avoided by aliens no matter how sophisticated they are. If they are smart enough to get here with or without robots, they would be sure to look elsewhere for healthy food! Surely there are many other planets without the human pollutants as a food source.

If they hung around at all, it would likely be due to some entertaining aspect(s) we do that they really appreciate. Surely humor is one of the highest aspects of intelligent life! Reminds me of Billy Pilgrim in Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five, where aliens, the Tralfamadorians , kidnap him and a Hollywood starlet and put them together to mate. I believe voyeurism had something to do with it. They could be just like many humans, big on watching other people (and other things) do that sort of stuff.

And I remember something about crop circles. Oh yes, didn't Led Zeppelin put out a compilation of LPs with crop circles on the cover? Now anyone suggesting there are aliens masquerading as humans and they are among us would certainly consider Led Zeppelin prime candidates! Certainly their music is out of this world.......
dfj - " I really doubt any aliens are going to want to fool around eating life from earth. Taking a few samples of likely eatables from various locations would quickly tell them that everything is loaded with Persistent Organic Compounds like PCB and DDT, etc. and a lot of methyl mercury, arsenic. etc. "
Are you including us in that? :)
 
Jan 14, 2020
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There are no aliens and FTL travel is not possible. How's that for simple answers?
The spontaneous development of any life, let alone intelligent life, is complex beyond calculation. It just won't happen except as described in one ancient book which most people are so falsely proud as to discard its truths.

Finding a suitable planet is also a lost cause. Even with thousands found, none are remotely suitable for life. Better information is forthcoming and many more planets will be discovered with more refined instrumentation but I think the same answer will apply. For life on earth we seem to have accepted a circular argument which by logic can't be true. That is, that the unsuitable planet, earth, was made suitable for life by life, such as algae. Mathematics will not accept that kind of logic.
 

COLGeek

Moderator
Apr 3, 2020
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There are no aliens and FTL travel is not possible. How's that for simple answers?
The spontaneous development of any life, let alone intelligent life, is complex beyond calculation. It just won't happen except as described in one ancient book which most people are so falsely proud as to discard its truths.

Finding a suitable planet is also a lost cause. Even with thousands found, none are remotely suitable for life. Better information is forthcoming and many more planets will be discovered with more refined instrumentation but I think the same answer will apply. For life on earth we seem to have accepted a circular argument which by logic can't be true. That is, that the unsuitable planet, earth, was made suitable for life by life, such as algae. Mathematics will not accept that kind of logic.
The notion that we (on Earth) are the only life in the entire universe is rather arrogant, regardless of its origins (how we got here). Just because we have yet to find it, does not mean it doesn't exist.

Our time as sentient beings is still but a blip of time on the cosmic scale of time and and space. The vastness of space alone could very well ensure we never know if we have neighbors unless they stumble across us.
 
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Mar 19, 2020
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Are you including us in that? :)
"Us" is at the top of the food chain and a trap for all the pollutants.

Of course they could always snag a number of young adult humans for breeding stock and take them back to their farms, and raise new humans without the pollutants. Do you suppose they would fatten us up on grain like they do with beef cattle in finishing lots?

I was sorta thinking you would be more interested in the voyeurism aspects, but you never can tell.....
 
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Mar 5, 2020
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Out of place objects.

There may be fragments of alien manufactured materials on Earth. Not technology more like garbage and scrap.

Paleontologists would have to be trained or at least accepting that they might find an out of place object.

An example would be metallic aluminum any time before the 1800’s.

Complex composite materials might be mistaken for minerals or natural ceramics.

Some museums might have alien artifacts without knowing it.

Teaching scientists to recognize alien garbage would be interesting.

Here we have alien coprolite containing human finger bones.
 
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Geomartian

I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but you often have something interesting to say.

I have given you a "like" because you have kept it short and well spaced, and I hope others will do the same to encourage and reward you :)
 
The notion that we (on Earth) are the only life in the entire universe is rather arrogant, regardless of its origins (how we got here). Just because we have yet to find it, does not mean it doesn't exist.

Our time as sentient beings is still but a blip of time on the cosmic scale of time and and space. The vastness of space alone could very well ensure we never know if we have neighbors unless they stumble across us.
COLGeek, you forgot to mention Earth being the centre of the Universe and, of course, that it is flat :)
 

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