Why cant a Space Elevator be put in LEO?

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WannabeRocketScientist

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Sorry if this sounds like a stupid idea. Why cant a space elevator be built to LEO? It seems that every plan for a space elevator has it going into geostationary orbit.

Would it not be more feasible to have the counterbalance for the elevator in LEO in the short term (rather than significantly further in the future)?

I understand that they want the counterbalance to be stationary (hence, geostationary orbit) but would the force of orbiting in LEO really make the elevator inoperable or dangerous? Or infeasible?

Thanks!
 
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scottb50

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WannabeRocketScientist":20igpww0 said:
Sorry if this sounds like a stupid idea. Why cant a space elevator be built to LEO? It seems that every plan for a space elevator has it going into geostationary orbit.

Would it not be more feasible to have the counterbalance for the elevator in LEO in the short term (rather than significantly further in the future)?

I understand that they want the counterbalance to be stationary (hence, geostationary orbit) but would the force of orbiting in LEO really make the elevator inoperable or dangerous? Or infeasible?

Thanks!

Yes to all three questions. If you put it in LEO any dangly pieces are going to be going pretty fast across the ground or going across the sky it would take more energy to dock to them then just getting to orbit. If you put your terminal at geo-orbit you have the energy to climb to an acceptable orbit. Without speed you can't stay there. step off the platform and you dive until you reach a certain speed then maneuver up or down to reach a desired orbit.

If you elevator goes all the way to geostationary it's all downhill from there.
 
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bdewoody

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I don't want any dangling cable wizzing over my head at 17,500 mph. Think about it there is no way a platform in LEO could stay over the same point on the ground.
 
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ZiraldoAerospace

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It seems like all of the ideas for an elevator include it being attached to the ground, but why not save money and have a platform in, say, near space that a short rocket burst or modified airplane/ scramjet could reach?
 
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SteveCNC

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ZiraldoAerospace":ivxjmktg said:
It seems like all of the ideas for an elevator include it being attached to the ground, but why not save money and have a platform in, say, near space that a short rocket burst or modified airplane/ scramjet could reach?

What's to keep it from de-orbiting with all that weight pulling down , I think that's the reason if it could work it would need to go to the ground .

Personally I have my doubts on it even being able to stay up for 5 minutes , let alone anything useful . If you have to get the end up to geo-stationary there should be a lot of force trying to make the area just below geo-stationary move , not to mention the jet stream is blowing wind at pretty fast speeds in all sorts of directions depending on altitude . I don't know , just seems like a disaster waiting to happen .

edit * after I thought about it I happen to think that an orbit is established by an objects center of mass and if you are hanging something far below the ship it's mass has to be acounted for to establish where geo-sink is , this isn't normally an issue but I think in this case it would be . I could be wrong on this one but it seems to me there would be a tendancy to tumble you would have to constantly correct for somehow .
 
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EarthlingX

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There are a lots of places in our solar system where you can get with an elevator, made with the current materials.

Why are you so geo-centric ? If a planet would be defined a little bit different (better), there are probably thousands of planets in our Solar system. There's a whole bunch of satellite planets around Jupiter, Saturn, there are very likely much more in the Oort cloud, or even closer, in Kuiper belt.

Plenty to explore, and a lot of destinations for different Hollywood features, where you can get with the elevator.
 
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MeteorWayne

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Let's try and build one close to earth before we attempt it elsewhere. On earth, the ONLY orbit that has the same spot in space above the same point on the ground is geostationary orbit above the equator. A LEO tether would have the tail end whipping by at ~ 16.500 mph above the surface, meanwhile encountering air and dragging the top end (satellite in LEO) down quite rapidly.

MW
 
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Jazman1985

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Doesn't necessarily need to be in LEO, but if you could build a tether starting at 100km and extending to 5000-15000 km, you could reach it at a lower velocity than orbital. This would at least reduce the cost to building the space vehicle. Some kind of a "net"(to use the term loosely) could be used to connect to the orbiting tether and the passengers/cargo could climb the tether. The mass of the tether would need to be tremendous compared to the vehicle, to prevent a large orbital change, but small electric thrusters applied over large periods of time, could maintain a stable orbit for a low amount of fuel cost. I would think that the cost for developing a rocket is exponentially related to it's delta v capability, so even a 1-2 km/s decrease in performance would matter greatly, let alone that it makes SSTO feasible today. Starting out with this kind of a tether could be flexible, were it could be extended and then eventually replaced by a full space elevator in the future far easier than building one from the get go.

It would be real interesting to see something similar for space hotels, where you have a tether connecting two hotels in different orbits, or using a tether system to transport guests, so the possibilities of visiting spacecraft damaging the hotel are minimized.

Wish I knew a little bit more about the engineering stresses placed on the tether in capturing a spacecraft, but it definetely seems plausible.
 
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sftommy

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I would suggest the weight of the tether be supported or replaced by by electro-magnetic legs on earth, powered to hold the crushing weight upright. Engineers might even be able to design an entire freeway to space supported by electro-magnetism. The system would be powered by solar panels in space.

Examples in micro-biology suggest a spring shape might be achievable and amenable to earths variant weather patterns and extremes.
 
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HopDavid

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Jazman1985":2vrcrta8 said:
Doesn't necessarily need to be in LEO, but if you could build a tether starting at 100km and extending to 5000-15000 km, you could reach it at a lower velocity than orbital. This would at least reduce the cost to building the space vehicle. Some kind of a "net"(to use the term loosely) could be used to connect to the orbiting tether and the passengers/cargo could climb the tether. The mass of the tether would need to be tremendous compared to the vehicle, to prevent a large orbital change, but small electric thrusters applied over large periods of time, could maintain a stable orbit for a low amount of fuel cost. I would think that the cost for developing a rocket is exponentially related to it's delta v capability, so even a 1-2 km/s decrease in performance would matter greatly, let alone that it makes SSTO feasible today. Starting out with this kind of a tether could be flexible, were it could be extended and then eventually replaced by a full space elevator in the future far easier than building one from the get go.

Good observations!

Here is some reading material:
Momentum Exchange Tethers - An Introduction
MXER Tether Intro #1: Simple Untapered Tethers
A Tether Technology Anniversary This links to some nice videos of a light triggered capture mechanism.
Momentum Exchange Tethers - Early History This one talks about space elevators. Sorensen also talks about Moravec's work.
Recursive Algorithm for Moravec's Mass Ratio More on Moravec plus code for Gaussian Error Function.

In MXER Tether Intro #1: Simple Untapered Tethers, Sorensen mentions "It gets even better when you learn that you can put that energy and angular momentum back just using electricity over a period of weeks to months, but that's another lesson." The earth has a magnetic field. An electric current can be produced from solar panels. When you run a current through a magnetic field, there is a sideways push. Thus it is possible for tethers to add or subtract to their momentum without use of propellent.

Depending on how much velocity a tether can impart to a payload, tethers might enable SSTO RLVs. If the launch vehicle can rendezvous with the tether at less than mach 25, that helps the propellent to dry mass ratio. The lower velocity would also reduce Thermal Protection System (TPS) requirements. This might enable design closure for SSTO RLVs.

Jazman1985":2vrcrta8 said:
Wish I knew a little bit more about the engineering stresses placed on the tether in capturing a spacecraft, but it definetely seems plausible.

Please see the Moravec discussions linked to above.

LEO tethers are far, far, more doable than a full blown space elevator. In my opinion, they have the greatest potential as a game changer in enabling us to get past LEO.
 
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Jazman1985

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Nice links HopDavid, Selenian Boondocks is one of my favorite blogs, while I don't generally have time to go through any of the math, they always have interesting articles.

Some of these articles have remained unknown and unread to me, so now I have some good reading ahead of me.

One common theme is that at least in the past, people seemed fixed on the space elevator reaching to the ground. This might be because in the past if you were going to space, you might as well go to orbit. This is about to change, with vastly more spaceships being built in the next 5 years than there have ever been before.(I can count 6 that WILL be built) If a suborbital space plane is reaching space, it doesn't simply have a y component for velocity, it's moving forward at some speed, why not use that?

The articles on selenian boondocks focus on momentum exchange tethers. Is it not possible to have the tether tip stationary relative to the orbital height, simply moving at a slower velocity than that governed by the orbital height at the tip? I would think the overall relative speed would be governed by the orbit of the C.O.G. If it's not necessary, I think the momentum exchange adds too much complexity, and while it would work for certain situations, like leaving LEO, I think that for changing orbits, it would be pretty dangerous.
 
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HopDavid

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Jazman1985":2ouiy2s9 said:
The articles on selenian boondocks focus on momentum exchange tethers. Is it not possible to have the tether tip stationary relative to the orbital height, simply moving at a slower velocity than that governed by the orbital height at the tip? I would think the overall relative speed would be governed by the orbit of the C.O.G. If it's not necessary, I think the momentum exchange adds too much complexity, and while it would work for certain situations, like leaving LEO, I think that for changing orbits, it would be pretty dangerous.

There are two flavors of tethers I know of.

One stays pointed towards the center of the earth. The whole tether would be moving at the same angular velocity. I'll denote the tether's angular velocity in radians per second as w. Speed of the tether at a given point would be wr, where r is point's distance from center of earth. Obviously the lower end of the tether is moving slower than orbital velocity at it's altitude and the the higher end is moving faster than orbital velocity at it's altitude. A payload captured at the lower end might be lifted by elevator to the upper end. When released, it'd be in a higher orbit. Adding momentum to a payload would subtract from the tether's momentum. But this could be regained by running a current through the tether as it passes through earth's magnetic field. This type of tether needs to be quite long. Here's a pic I drew of such a critter:
LEOTether.jpg


The second flavor: a rotating tether. A rotating tether wouldn't need a such a huge length to impart substantial delta V.

How much delta V can a plausible tether impart? I don't know. (By plausible, I mean made out of kevlar or some other real substance, not bucky tubes or unobtainium). Studying the Moravec model is on my to do list.

If it could even impart 1 km/sec that might be a game changer.
 
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Jazman1985

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I think it all comes down to whether you want to chance using a spinning tether and risking damage to the spacecraft, or if you want to go to the trouble of building a superlong tether. Yes, a 1 km/s decrease in delta v would make SSTO viable today and could presumably decrease launch costs by a factor of 10 or more.
 
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Floridian

Guest
Good question, people will be extremely critical of something that goes against what "they've already figured out".

I don't really understand how a space elevator going into geo-earth orbit will be cheaper than building a 100km structure. My math is probably not exact but I remember hearing 99% of our atmosphere falls within either 60km or 60miles of the surface.

Overcoming that first 99% of the atmosphere is the hardest part of getting into LEO. As, without an atmosphere, a craft would not lose speed if in orbit, it would just descend if it wasn't going fast enough.

Yes a 60-100km structure would be extremely expensive, but if the result was proven to work, all it would be would be a matter of investment, and it would create a lot of jobs. Also, in a free-market, if an idea can be proven to work, then the investment will appear.

Why couldn't we build a 60km pyramid or something along those lines. It would be a monumental construction project, but could be engineered. A pyramid shape I would think would be distribute the weight on the lower levels. Also a pyramid would not have to be inhabitable inside, that is, a road or lift would be built around the pyramid or straight up it. Really it would be more like a 60km artificial mountain, with a train running up the side.

The first 20km would need to be the most massive, then I would think the building could start significantly tapering off as you got higher, construction would be very difficult but possible using cranes anchored to the structure, as nothing would be built inside the structure - it would be solid, probably a very tough filler material with reinforced pillars going deep into the earths surface and spread out.

If it was possible to get to 40km, using modified modern construction methods, perhaps after that, the structure could significantly taper off, only with a little more than the required strength to support the weight above it. From the top, if a train was going all the way up the structure, or spiraling around it, perhaps there would be a launch pad.

Would it be possible to engineer a reusable craft that could launch from 60km straight into LEO orbit? Wouldn't that be much cheaper than going from 0-60km.

Also, if this structure could be built, perhaps nothing would land, craft would be launched into orbit and would stay and be recycled there, astronauts could parachute or use a small descent glyder craft rather than docking with the structure.

This structure would seemingly conquer LEO, if it was possible with todays materials.


A big concern would be keeping the structure from sinking into the ground. I have no idea how it would be engineered, but you would probably need a huge, possibly 100kmby100km foundation to support the structure and distribute the weight?

In any case, ET would certainly know intelligent life existed on Earth if they did a fly-by :)

(insert remark about how life on earth is unintelligent if we build this or something)


Seriously though, the Egyptians built the pyramids, why wouldn't this be possible?

At the very least, you could have water/fuel/power being piped and cabled up the elevator from the Earth.
 
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neilsox

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In my humble opinion = IMHO, we can put a bolo = short rotovator = tumbling tether in LEO = low Earth orbit. The problem is the first stage = hypersonic airplane or missile engineered to rendezvous with the tether tip, needs a lot of expensive work before it can be built. A few thousand kilometers long reduces the specs on the first stage and makes several kilometers per second per second of delta v likely possible. Longer requires many tons of kevlar or equivelent.
A few tons of CNT = carbon nanotubes with great specs, would likely allow a bolo 300,000 kilometers long, which would likely be much better. The other problem is the Dr. Edwards type climber needs a lot of expensive work, before we can build some of them. That climber and the lasers to propel it are likely the only practical way to to keep the bolo in good repair long term as it will be damaged by micro meteorites, atomic oxygen and space junk. The climber can lay new threads over the damaged parts much the same way as it will (hopefully) convert the very thin starter space elevator to a thicker ribbon that can tolerate climbers that can lift many tons into space. There are many old posts at www.liftport.com in the forum, some by brilliant people. Neil
 
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sftommy

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Perhaps the better question is:

"Why aren't we putting a Space Elevator in Lunar Orbit?"
 
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neilsox

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We can put a short bolo in lunar orbit, a with the tip coming within a few kilometers of the moon's surface, at only a few hundred kilometers per hour and perhaps one kilometer per second at the high end. Arriving space probes would have to slow to about one kilometer per second, but that might be possible with a sling shot maneuver around the Moon. It would be too dangerous for humans for at least the first few years. Again a longer tether is likely much better, but CNT with great specs is needed to avoid many tons of Kevlar. Again the the demand might come if a bolo was available for a few dollars per use, but that would make payback a century or more. Without the Dr. Edwards climber, the lunar bolo might not last one year. The lasers would have to be on the Moon and or lunar orbit where they might get hit by the bolo. We can also attach a Dr. Edwards type space elevator to the moon passing though Earth Moon L1. Kevlar is possible, but very expensive due to the many tons of kevlar needed. Neil
 
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neilsox

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We have built a few towers about one kilometer tall. The next advance should be about 1.1 or 1.2 kilometers. If we add ten percent on the average at 5 year intervals, it will take about 400 years to reach 60 kilometers assuming none of the many intermediate steps suffer a twin towers or similar disaster. We can of course appropriate a million dollars per day to build a 60 kilometer tower by 2020, but it will all but surely collapse several times before it reaches 60 kilometers, because we don't know the fine details of building 60 kilometer towers. Late completion and serious cost over run are likely. Neil
 
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EarthlingX

Guest
What kind of tethers would be needed to get 1t of mass from the lunar surface to LLO, perhaps with momentum exchange, and some kind of help from the ground, like rockets, or maglev ?
How do you get this stuff there ? Can't start with that, but it is quite an interesting option, i think, if not for else, because it allows with a relatively short communication distance getting proficient with tele-robotics. Of course, NASA, JAXA, probably others, are already working on this idea, and we will see something of it relatively soon, in the next Shuttle launch.

I see no huge technology or science leap here, just small steps, and tele-presence can benefit a lot of fields.

If we put together solution, which would allow human crew to operate robotic facilities in a communication range of a couple of light seconds, we are well on the way to all over the place, when we learn how to live away from momma Earth.

Elevators, or variations, that can do a couple of km dV, could take us to a lot of places - they could be important part of a space architecture - with current materials.

Could very high towers be supported by lighter than air structures, at least for the part where can do any good ? Maybe we should take a look at atmosphere as a bonus, not only as a problem.
 
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neilsox

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Hi Earthling X: My guess is we are close to deploying a short bolo, without a first stage to reach the tip at perhaps 5 kilometers per second, altitude 200 kilometers, briefly at 21 second intervals. The center is orbiting at 8 and the outer tip at 11 kilometers per second, so it can put perhaps one ton in LEO at 240 kilometers in a circular orbit. So the bolo is 20 kilometers radius, with the tips chasing each other at 3 kilometers per second Circumference of the tip path is 62.8 kilometers so the tip speed with respect to the other tip is almost 2.1 kilometers per second. We gain 6 kilometers per second with respect to Earth's surface at the Equator, if I'm not confused. The pay load will experience several g.
If the tether survives a month, it is likely reparable long term with an Edwards type climber, so we will fund the climber and a vehicle to attach a payload at 200 kilometers at 5 kilometers per second. If it survives less than a month, we will attempt a better tether design and evasive maneuvers to dodge space junk. The Edwards type climber can help dodge the space junk by starting and stopping and reversing direction. This puts traveling transients on the tether which change the tether position (hopefully) by enough to miss the piece of space junk. The tether will stretch at least a little depending on the local tension.
The momentum exchange is not free. The bolo will loose altitude and rotational speed with each attachment and each launch, unless there is a means to restore the altitude and tip speed. I suggest a tip rocket at each of the two tips. That means some of the attachments need to be fuel for the tip rockets. In theory we can do about 100 attachments and releases per hour, so enormous amounts of mass can be orbited even at one ton per launch.
There is also a rather nasty jerk shortly after the attachment of each payload. The tip rocket can likely reduce the jerk and give the pay load a slight extra boost and direction change at release, if this is desirable for this launch. Neil
 
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WannabeRocketScientist

Guest
Thanks for all the discussion and links! Definitely a lot to think about, and a lot of material to read :) .

I do really like the idea of a moon-orbit tether as well. Of course, that is the real final goal for an earth-bound space elevator ( Earth-Mars, Earth-Venus is impossible because of all the planet's respective orbits if I'm not mistaken :| ).

Sorry if I come off as rather uneducated about these matters. I'm certainly no engineer!
 
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neilsox

Guest
Mars can have an Edwards type space elevator, but not Venus due to it's very slow rotation and extremely hot surface.
The moons of the gas giant planets, Earth and Mars can have low cost Edwards type elevators passing though their L1, but they don't provide a lot of delta v.
Bolo = short rotovators may be practical almost everywhere.
A tether about one million kilometers long could be anchored at a cloud top habitat of Venus, but the tether would need to be very strong as the tension would vary widely and not very predictably. This is because the habitat would circle Venus in about 4 days, blown by the upper atmosphere winds. Neil
 
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global_lift

Guest
A space elevator need not be based on the popular carbon nanotube tether reaching a to a counterweight beyond GEO. There is another model that can be used for assisted launch at LEO and other human activities. Such a system goes by the name of a SpaceShaft and it is not as sexy as the CNT system but it can be used for other applications that the CNT system cannot be used for.

I will present a short qualitative description of it. And I will recommend you visit http://spaceshaft.org for some illustrations and online calculators.

Unlike the CNT system it is not a tether but a dynamic structure that can be compared to a spar-buoy, but rather larger than a semi-submersible platform used by the oil industry. For those who do not know what a spar-buoy is I recommend to Google for images, but in a nutshell it is a tubular buoy with an anchor-chain at one of its ends that force the object to stand upright half submerged an the other half floating out of the water.

Metaphorically we can compare the atmospheric environment of our planet to that of the oceans while space is the counterpart of the atmosphere. Because buoyancy can happen on both fluidic environments, a device that harness the energy of gravity can be implemented as to generate unlimited upthrust beyond both weight and distance and both products are simply based on the volume of the object displacing the environment in which it is submersed. However, there will be trade-offs like with any other system and these I may discuss later.

The deployment of such a system is gradual, and uses a FI-FO (First-In - First-Out) sequence of events for its construction. But before describing the process in further detail I will describe a little bit the atmospheric environment in which it will have to operate and do some simple math to give an idea of the potential and magnitude of the system. The following description of the deployment stages will exemplify the ease by which such a structure can be implemented.

As you may know, the atmosphere is dense at Sea level and very thin at half way to the Karman line, that is at a altitude of 50 km (see Wikipedia). If throughout this distance a large buoyant object can be made to stand upright, it will cumulate all the upthrust energy from the gaseous displacement of significantly dense regions of the atmosphere in which it is embedded. As an example of the cumulated energy; it will be anywhere between 9800 N to 4.90E7 N for a structure with a diameter of 100 meters, which is equivalent to a lifting capacity of 5000 t (tonnes).

The effect a thin atmosphere on a very large science balloon at an altitude of 50 km is that of stagnation, i.e. it will no longer ascend. However, because of the underlaying buoyancy the top section will be forced still further towards space until an equilibrium between weight and upthrust is achieved. As a simple example assuming that the atmosphere had a continuous density, half of the object would reach into space, i.e 25 km, and the other half will be submersed in the atmosphere, i.e. 25 km.

You could point out that; "optimistically this effect would only bring us up to an elevation of 75 km". But if the object was engineered in such a way that it could be controlled during its ascent, and that new buoyant sections could be regularly added at the base, such limitation would be eliminated and the resulting object will be a utility that could be regarded as a unidirectional elevator system that could reach beyond 100 km, and could also provide the necessary infrastructure needed for activities such as rocket assisted-launches, (e.g. space tourism,) and for other applications such as observation platforms for atmospherical and astronomical purposes.

Let us now look at the deployment method.

Assume that large, tubular balloons, with a diameter of 5 meters can be manufactured and forced to a “ring” shaped element that we will be identifying from now on as sectional-rings.

Note: It will be very important for accurate results to know the material properties from which the shells of these balloons are made of. And so, if not more important, it will be to know the precise air-density values, found within the “US Standard atmosphere” tables, but for simplicity and due to the lack of time these properties and subsequent calculations will not be taken into account at this forum.

Assume that each of these sectional-rings can contain 3600 cubic meters of Helium, i.e. the individual lift capacity of each ring, at sea level, is 3.6 t. Also assume that the sectional ring is moored by several mooring lines forcing it to lay horizontally. Also assume that the mooring lines can control the ascent of the sectional-ring enough as to insert a second sectional ring below the first one. Once this is done, both sectional-rings are securely attached and mooring lines are attached to the lower sectional ring and removed from the top sectional-ring. What you now have is an object with 7.2 t of lifting capacity. Keep repeating the mentioned steps until the system has reached 50 km of elevation.

You will notice the very large numbers of lifting capacity resulting from buoyancy throughout the atmospheric layers of the troposphere and lower stratosphere, (for your calculations use the air densities found at Wikipedia). And how this effect rapidly decreases when accessing the mesosphere, to a point in which the balloons become pure weight. Nevertheless, even with the pressurized balloons being on a pure weight condition the resulting net upthrust force is plentiful as to extend the structure into space.

I have superficially described how a SpaceShaft works, I am aware that there are many points that need further explanation, including how to keep the structure from being tossed around by weather disturbances, etc, but I hope I have given you another option to think about when considering space elevators.
 
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EarthlingX

Guest
to SDC global_lift !

Checked the site, very nice. I like the idea too, of course :cool:
 
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HopDavid

Guest
neilsox":1j8e44gp said:
Mars can have an Edwards type space elevator, but not Venus due to it's very slow rotation and extremely hot surface.
The moons of the gas giant planets, Earth and Mars can have low cost Edwards type elevators passing though their L1, but they don't provide a lot of delta v.

Phobos has a healthy angular velocity and is in a steep part of Mars' gravity well. That means for a relatively short length of tether, it can provide substantial delta V
PhobosTether.jpg
 
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