Why go to the Moon ?

[radarredux]

This is a common question in these forums, and the ESAS (an architecture document) is often criticized for not spelling out <i>why</i> we are going to the Moon or <i>what science</i> will be done there.<br /><br />Paul Spudis has written an editorial that addresses some of these concerns.<br />"Why We're Going Back to the Moon"<br />http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/26/AR2005122600648.html

 

[halcyondays]

Good article, for sure. But this statement is made :<br /><br /><<<<br />Water exists in the dark and cold regions near the poles of the moon.<br /> />>><br /><br />I did not think that this had yet been conclusively confirmed.

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">I did not think that this had yet been conclusively confirmed</font>/i><br /><br />Well, they don't call it "ground truth" for nothing. Orbital reconnaissance can only take you so far. NASA recently announced plans for the first robotic rover to land on the Moon (around 2011 I believe), to specifically verify the source of those hydrogen indicators in one of the Lunar polar craters.</i>

 

[bwhite]

Why all this fuss over water? Why are some folks so sanguine about abundant water ice? I am not opposed to harvesting lunar ice IF we find a huge glacier just waiting to be mined. But, digging scraps of water out of cold traps? Why?<br /><br />If we use a hydrogen / LOX engine the hydrogen is 11% by mass of the fuel. Methane / LOX and methane is 20% by mass of the fuel. Deploying lunar LOX production ASAP makes perfect sense to me combined with imported CH4 or H2 unless readily harvested water ice is found.<br /><br />4/5ths of the benefit for a tiny fraction of the headaches.<br /><br />= = =<br /><br />Suppose there is water. How much power will we need to extract it? Then how much power will we need to crack it into 2 H2 & O2? <br /><br />Send a Honda home power generator converted to methane for house power for your permanent base. Ask Honda to pay a few hundred million dollars "for promotional considerations" - - otherwise use a Tecumseh methane ready gen-set. Or Briggs & Stratton.<br /><br />Deliver methane, harvest lunar LOX and run the generators to help power the station or the rovers. <br /><br />Collect the exhaust. Voila! Pure water.<br /> <br />Betcha that will be cheaper than sending giant machines and nuclear reactors to extract cold trap ice and convert to 2 H2 and O2.<br /> <br />= = =<br /><br />Edit to add:<br /><br />I read somewhere that a cargo only variant of the LSAM will be able to deliver about 21 tons to the lunar surface. 21 tons of H2 combusted with lunar LOX will yield 190 tons of water, if we decided to store it as water rather than H2. <br /><br />190 tons of water? How many LSAM landings will we need to deliver the machinery needed to harvest 190 tons of cold trap ice? ONE LSAM cargo mission plus lunar LOX equals 190 tons of water.<br /><br />Beisdes, run that H2 through a generator or fuel cell and we can generate a whole lot of power rather than consuming a whole lot of power.

 

[nyarlathotep]

>>"190 tons of water? How many LSAM landings will we need to deliver the machinery needed to harvest 190 tons of cold trap ice? ONE LSAM cargo mission plus lunar LOX equals 190 tons of water. "<br /><br />Hundreds once you factor in a steady supply of replacement parts. Regolith is highly abrasive and sticky, you'd be lucky if your bobcat analogue lasts a day before something breaks.

 

[JonClarke]

"In my opinion, science needs to take a back seat here. That is not to say that science wont be done, but rather it should be done in support of or along side of colonization and exploitation... First and foremost we need to learn to live somewhere other than the Earth."<br /><br />What you are proposing is science. Most scientific research is precisely of this applied nature.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

If there is no water then what you suggest may be feasible. Although fuel cells may be a better source of water than IC engines, at least on the Moon.<br /><br />But you still are going to need power sources to convert water back to hydrogen. Nor will your system be 100% efficient, you will need to import more hydrogen to make up the difference. or find it locally.<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

"Regolith is highly abrasive and sticky, you'd be lucky if your bobcat analogue lasts a day before something breaks."<br /><br />It might be abrasive and sticky, but is hardly diamond! Earth moving machinery is built for extremely abrasive environments. Abrasion and lubrication will be a challenge, but not to the extent you suggest.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[frodo1008]

Space itself is far and away the best place for humanity to evenrually colonize. but places like the moon and other low gravity sites (such as asteroids, and other moons) are the best places to find the necessary matter and materials to colonize space itself.<br /><br />The major advantages of space itself are three:<br /><br />one: No gravity well to fight. Easy handling of materials and equipment, and by spinning or rotating habitats any gravity you wish (even Earth gravity itself)<br /><br />two: Unlimited energy from the sun. No night to block such energy off.<br /><br />three: And finally, and eventually formost of all, totally unlimited room for humanity to expand in!<br /><br />This does not mean that such places like Mars should not be explored, exploited, and even possibly colonized also.<br /><br />It is going to take time, wealth, and even lives to do any of this, but if mankind soen't do it we are eventually doomed!!! <br /><br />

 

[bwhite]

<i>so who's ready to start an NEA industrial site using robotic telepresence? Let's get some Gerard K. O'Neill High Frontier in this place, and if you're not going to do that, than moon or mars while those ideas are getting more political force from the excitement those missions generate.</i><br /><br />Over at NewMars we have been chatting about the advantages of mining in at least 1/6th gee. NEA mining presents a whole new level of headaches because all of our mining experience involves gravity. <br /><br />For example, how do you get a drill bit to dig in rather than push off into space? Manuevering heavy equipment actually might be easier in 1/6th gee that zero gee because things will stay where you leave them.<br /><br />If Dennis Wingo is right, however, there are intact asteroid fragments littering the lunar surface. Want to asteroid mine? Just find the right fragments lying about on (or just under) the lunar surface.<br /><br />= = =<br /><br />One reason I favor lunar LOX plus imported methane is that you can build your LOX plant smack dab on top of debris fields from your chosen asteroid impact site and drop the methane or hydrogen at that location. No need to go looking for water ice. <br /><br />Besides, methane is only 20% of the fuel mass needed to run a methane converted RL-10 and getting 80% of the ISRU benefit with access to the entire moon seems like a good deal to me.

 

[josh_simonson]

>If Dennis Wingo is right, however, there are intact asteroid fragments littering the lunar surface. Want to asteroid mine? Just find the right fragments lying about on (or just under) the lunar surface. <br /><br />Hmm, 100 bucks says a metal detector will be included in the lunar exploration kits. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />