Why the Moon, Mars and Beyond? It is a Matter of Surviving -

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Danny_Clay

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Why the Moon, Mars and Beyond? It is a Matter of Surviving - Part I
September 28, 2009
by DC Lee - A Woodward Report Columnist

from http://www.thewoodwardreport.com/

In May, President Obama set up a panel to study and propose the how, when and if for future US space flight efforts. Considering Obama’s current shilly-shallying on his Afghan War policy, we should worry whether any American space program will be left when he finally makes up his mind.
 
Since NASA was formed by politics instead of pure scientific need due to Sputnik's launch by the USSR in 1957, one would not be surprised at its sinister, shaky hand at the throttle and purse strings.
 
However, John Kennedy was most eloquent and gallant when he defined why we would go to the moon: "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win..."
 
That speech at Houston's Rice Stadium on September 12, 1962, sticks in my mind because I was there, a ninth grader from Jane Long Junior High. Electricity was in the air as everyone in the country felt we not only could, but we would go to the moon and beyond. It was only a matter of time.
 
Yet after we got to the moon, old habits returned. Politics canceled the Apollo 18, 19 and 20 manned missions to the Moon and shaped the program we have today. What we should do in our space program is for another column to follow on another day.
 
We can all agree that politics changed our space effort through the past fifty some odd years with each new President and it continues to this day.
 
Some call for entirely doing away with the space program, asserting that the money could be better spent elsewhere. They add it is not safe: "People die!"

Yet this is the same crowd that also figures 'any' money spent on defense is the same stupid waste and who also consider killing the unborn via abortion a civil right. Since the majority of these minions reside in the liberal engine that runs Obama's agenda, the very existence of our space program is indeed in grave danger.
 
Consider this, going into space is not only a worthy enterprise, it is a necessary effort if the Human Race is to survive.
 
Only in the past few decades have scientists come to understand the part space travel has played in Earth's history and make up. The space travel of a six mile wide asteroid ended the dinosaurs reign 65 million years ago. The 1994 Shoemaker-Levy 9 Comet fragments collision with Jupiter finally proved that things traveling in space find places to land, and they land with devastating effect.
 
It is not "if" an asteroid or comet will impact our planet causing an apocalypse for every man, woman and child, it is "when!"

While those wholly backing the Global Warming Hoax running to and fro shouting "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" with glee, they should understand it truly is! And you cannot buy Al Gore's bogus carbon credits as insurance for such a humanity ending impact catastrophe.
 
That is the reason why we should move forward with returning to the moon as well as venturing onward to Mars. We should actively begin colonizing both as an outpost of mankind, outposts for our eventual journey out into our part of the Milky Way and beyond.

It is looking more and more likely that water, in the form of super cold ice, will be found in some of the always dark craters on the moon's poles. Evidence of water on Mars is also very compelling. This will be most helpful as not only is water good for drinking and washing, but split into oxygen and hydrogen, it serves as a most efficient fuel for rockets.
 
Mars is our nearest neighbor that we can actually change with our current and near future technology. We can reform Mars into a world very similar to Earth. It would take perhaps one or two centuries, but the time span for the United States going from hand-to-mouth colonies to sea-to-sea economic power took much longer.
 
No, it will not be cheap nor without loss of life, but considering the alternative, it is something we must do for the survival of our species. Man's future is out among the stars, not here on Earth. If he stays here, it will be a dead end as final as the fate of the T-Rex, Dodo or Passenger Pigeon.

The only difference is unlike the aforementioned, we have a choice in the matter.

Looking forward to your comments and criticisms,

Danny
 
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drwayne

Guest
Welcome to the board.

Please note the rules for "Fair Use" that are implemented for this board. Quoting an article in
length as you have, even with attribution, and permission, is not allowed.

Note also that this piece is really not on topic for the section that you posted in. I'll
move it where it goes in a bit.

Again, welcome to the board.

Wayne

Statement on Fair Use:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19257
 
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Danny_Clay

Guest
If I put this into the wrong forum, I apologize. I thought it was the best thread of those available. Again, my apology.

Now, since I wrote the column in the first place, I would assume I have 'fair use' to post it where ever I wish. But if I cannot, please advise me as to my rights for using my own work on this forum?

Danny AKA DC Lee
 
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drwayne

Guest
Generally speaking, follow the rules in the link I posted. Post a couple of paragraphs for
context, and a link for the rest.

This enables us to avoid the "Does he/she really have permission", and the dreaded "Is the
person claiming to be John Smith actually John Smith" cases. (Yes, we have impersonators from time
to time)

With regards to putting it in the wrong forum, for your amusement, I will tell you that while
this is not really a "Missions and Launches" post, which deals with actual missions and
launches, picking a better one is hard for me, and I have been here many years. :)

Wayne
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
If it helps Wayne, that would have been my choice as well

OtherWayne
 
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samkent

Guest
Why would I want to pony up more tax dollars on your speculation that the world is going to end. Maybe you don’t need money but I have to pay child support. I don’t need to support another boondoggle program based on someone’s fortune telling.
 
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drwayne

Guest
Humorous aside on the impersonator thing - many years ago, we had a drop in by one, that
resulted in his being banned. This led to a nervous fellow moderator saying to me "But Wayne,
what is he REALLY is Richard Branson?"

Sorry for the tangent...

Wayne

p.s. Thanks Wayne for the encouragement!
 
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Danny_Clay

Guest
Re: samkent » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:53 pm “Why would I want to pony up more tax dollars on your speculation that the world is going to end. Maybe you don’t need money but I have to pay child support. I don’t need to support another boondoggle program based on someone’s fortune telling.”

What does one say to another who has a totally closed mind on any scientific evidence or findings? Not much. Not much at all.

However, if his view wins out in the long run, we know his DNA will not last past the end of the planet. However, if my side wins out, my DNA will have a chance to go on. I want my great, great, great grandchildren and their great, great, great grandchildren's great, great, great grandchildren to survive and go on. I want my species to survive. I want them to survive or go out fighting on their feet.

BTW samkent, if you are so against space travel and spending any funds on it, why are you even on this forum on space travel? Seems to me to be a waste of your valuable time that could be better spent earning more money for your child support and, I assume, alimony to the ex.

Wayne, silly me. I though posting my column on space travel here at ‘Space.Com” would bring about some discussion or some give and take it. Yet it appears all I have done is break the rules, been admonished for it and have one flat-earther who would only appreciate me never again writing another word on the subject.

Looks like I need to look elsewhere for folks who care about going to the moon, Mars and beyond.

Sorry I bothered y'all.
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
You're quite wrong Danny. Just because you haven't had a hundred replies in a day doesn't mean your post hasn't been read and is being considered. Some folks reply quickly, others take some time to make an intelligent response. Which do you think is better?

So you picked the wrong forum, that's no big deal. A lot of first time posters who haven't read the forums first pick the wrong one. That's what the Mods are here for, to get them in the right place.

As far as the fair use issue, if you had been reading here for a while you would know that we have had some problems with that issue, so have recently created some new guidelines to address the issue.

You really shouldn't complain when your first post wound up with some minor problems that have been addressed, when it appears that you did not spend any time acquainting yourself with the landcape of SDC.

Take a deep breath, and see what discussion ensues.
 
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Danny_Clay

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Wayne, it was not a zillion postings I expected overnight, but the last thing I expected was to be told I could not post my own work. Granted, I am to blame as I did not, as you say, get the lay of the land before I jumped in with both feet.

I post elsewhere on many different sites and I was not looking for instant fame here at Space.Com. It just seemed to be the place to offer up my column on going to the moon, Mars and beyond.

Having been a space fan since I was already a 10 year old Bob Heinlein fanatic when Sputnik went up and vividly recall watching Vanguard blow up on the pad on live black & white TV, I guess I just expected the first comments to be on the subject of space travel, not breaking the rules and being told I was writing end of the world fantasies without any scientific proof to back it up.

So, we'll see what develops here on the Space Business and Technology thread.
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
You made a common newbie mistake. It's not a big problem

And you can understand some confusion, since you use the name Danny_Clay, while the article was written by someone called DC Lee. Perhaps you can notice they are not the same? :)

Again, we've had a lot of problems here with such issues, so how about you cut us a break as well, as we do unto you? ;)

Can't we all just get along? :)
 
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Danny_Clay

Guest
Sure, Wayne, we can get along.

I've even gone and done up my profile for all to see. And yes, that is a legal Model 1928 'USMC' Thompson submachine gun I am holding in my ID photo from 1973. I was in the gun business for a few years and continue to believe in the 2nd Amendment. To me, gun control is a steady aim on your target, period.

Now, that should get me a few comments, eh?

Sincerely,
Danny Clay Lee
 
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mark_d_s

Guest
Classic!

"While those wholly backing the Global Warming Hoax..."

Followed by...

"What does one say to another who has a totally closed mind on any scientific evidence or findings? Not much. Not much at all."

Like the evidence on climate change?

"To me, gun control is a steady aim on your target, period."
"Now, that should get me a few comments, eh?"

Here's one - you're a right wing fool. Oh, and an attention seeker to boot.

Your attitude is exactly why we should take space exploration one step at a time - there's simply no need or desire (or indeed money) for such a childish gung-ho approach. And that's proably why there hasn't been a torrent of replies to this thread.

Appologies to the mods, but that was a very irritating first post!
 
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Danny_Clay

Guest
mark_d_s":3hpnq0l1 said:
Classic!

"While those wholly backing the Global Warming Hoax..."

Followed by...

"What does one say to another who has a totally closed mind on any scientific evidence or findings? Not much. Not much at all."

Like the evidence on climate change?*

"To me, gun control is a steady aim on your target, period."
"Now, that should get me a few comments, eh?"

Here's one - you're a right wing fool. Oh, and an attention seeker to boot.

Your attitude is exactly why we should take space exploration one step at a time - there's simply no need or desire (or indeed money) for such a childish gung-ho approach. And that's proably why there hasn't been a torrent of replies to this thread.

Appologies to the mods, but that was a very irritating first post!
Thank you for your truly nonirritating comments...

If you bait the trap with the correct bait, the vermin will come.

And, of course, you, mark, are not a left wing fool who happily marches down the yellow paper mache road of global warming for an agenda that if enacted will only destroy the economy of the United States and make us equal to all the third world nations in sharing their misery.

Listen, there is climate change and has been since the world began, but this global warming is a hoax based entirely on junk science or distorted findings.* Sunspots, plate tectonics and wobbles in the earth's tilt have more to do with climate change that anything mankind has done up to this time.

Enjoy the next year or so as I believe November of 2010 will find that the American People have woke up, are mad as hell and are not going to take it any more!

Oh well, you can lead someone who is ignorant to knowledge, but you cannot make him think—

* Even the New York Times, among others are starting to get it! Just a few recent examples:
Momentum on Climate Pact Is Elusive http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/science/earth/23cool.html?_r=1&sq=climate plateua&st=cse&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1253704511-2/toCQil4RzIVB/ZqEVkLw
The Dog Ate Global Warming: Interpreting climate data can be hard enough. What if some key data have been fiddled? http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTBiMTRlMDQxNzEyMmRhZjU3ZmYzODI5MGY4ZWI5OWM=
Paul Krugman Tries To Play Scientist, As Real Scientist Uncover Serious Flaw In Global Warming Data http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/10811
How the global warming industry is based on one MASSIVE lie http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100011716/how-the-global-warming-industry-is-based-on-one-massive-lie/
 
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tampaDreamer

Guest
You are stuck in a left/right paradigm that does not represent a real set of choices for our future and furthermore does not even represent the actual positions of the two parties that control this country. The idea that democrats are anti-war is a joke. And the idea that nation building serves our national interests is another fallacy. This is what happens when a person gets their head stuck in the 24 hour news cycle and is unable or unwilling to pry it free.

If we have just a few million years before the next killer asteroid hits, a very easy assumption to make given the scales of time in this scenario, then rushing out to the moon to build a "colony" with our primitive tech would do more to set back a future colonization effort than it would to help it. While we might make a colony that we could support with exhaustive effort, if the earth collapsed it would no more be able to survive for many generations than a plastic liferaft could in the ocean.
 
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Danny_Clay

Guest
tampaDreamer":3epcaj6g said:
You are stuck in a left/right paradigm that does not represent a real set of choices for our future and furthermore does not even represent the actual positions of the two parties that control this country. The idea that democrats are anti-war is a joke. And the idea that nation building serves our national interests is another fallacy. This is what happens when a person gets their head stuck in the 24 hour news cycle and is unable or unwilling to pry it free.

If we have just a few million years before the next killer asteroid hits, a very easy assumption to make given the scales of time in this scenario, then rushing out to the moon to build a "colony" with our primitive tech would do more to set back a future colonization effort than it would to help it. While we might make a colony that we could support with exhaustive effort, if the earth collapsed it would no more be able to survive for many generations than a plastic liferaft could in the ocean.
Unfortunately, nowadays just about everything is defined by the gap between the left/right. It has become a chasm with blame to go all around, but one cannot straddle the fence these days. If you do and allow bad science push us into Cap & Trade, then the whole economy will go down the drain dragging the entire nation with it.

Ask yourself, which would better help the economy: the already passed 800 billion porkulus bill or re-aiming that 800 billion to be spent on getting to the moon, Mars and beyond?

Now, there is merit in your conclusion that “If we have just a few million years before the next killer asteroid hits, a very easy assumption to make given the scales of time in this scenario...” but it must be tempered also by the reality that a six mile or bigger asteroid may be about to hit us now or in the next hour, day or week. That is part of the problem. We do not know when. We just know it will happen.

Granted our present technology is not perfect and it will be a trial and error effort, but we have to start as soon as we can. Future technology will make it easier to develop and build colonies on the moon or Mars or in the asteroid belt or beyond. Yet if we sit on our hands and wait on the future technology, we may find out the hard way we do not have the time.
 
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samkent

Guest
It’s not that I’m closed minded but I’m practical.

They didn’t build new homes with helicopter pads in the 1960’s did they? Remember we were all supposed to be flying to work by now. They would have wasted money building the infrastructure before the technology existed to use it.

After they built the first submarine (the Turtle) in the 1700’s did they start building subs that would stay under for months at a time? No the technology didn’t exist and it would have been a waste of money.

What you are suggesting is we make plans and efforts before the extinction of mankind. The problem is we just don’t have the technology to accomplish the task. You can’t throw money and manpower at the problem and expect them to invent new solutions on a timetable.

Franklin discovered electricity. Would throwing money in the form of grants produced the telephone any quicker? I think not.

You have to solve the basic problems of food, air and water. They have a half baked plan to get O2 from the lunar dirt by baking it. And thoughts extracting water from the same dirt. Neither of these methods are practical. But I have yet to hear of a plan to produce food.

Look I love Star Trek as much if not more than most Americans. But I am not willing to throw money at pie in the sky dreams or should I say fears of the sky is falling.
 
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Danny_Clay

Guest
samkent":3gt6tzss said:
It’s not that I’m closed minded but I’m practical.

What you are suggesting is we make plans and efforts before the extinction of mankind. The problem is we just don’t have the technology to accomplish the task. You can’t throw money and manpower at the problem and expect them to invent new solutions on a timetable.
Tell that to the guys of the Manhattan Project with 1940s technology. And you do know we had the technology back in the 1960s to go to the moon and return, don't you? When Kennedy spoke in 1962, the Saturn nor Apollo was not up and running but they got it done in just a few years.

samkent":3gt6tzss said:
They have a half baked plan to get O2 from the lunar dirt by baking it. And thoughts extracting water from the same dirt. Neither of these methods are practical.
Read today's entry "How NASA Hopes to Mine Water on the Moon" at http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/090930-tw-tapping-moon-water.html as it is just one of many different articles and news reports on numerous successfully methods for getting water from lunar soil and the ice buried under the moon's surface and in the ever dark craters at the lunar poles.

samkent":3gt6tzss said:
Look I love Star Trek as much if not more than most Americans. But I am not willing to throw money at pie in the sky dreams or should I say fears of the sky is falling.
If you don't want to worry about the threat from an asteroids or comet impact killing off mankind, be my guest. It is a free country for the time being.

After having looked over several of your other posts on Space.Com, you seem to have a negative attitude about anything to do with space travel. Kirk and Spock would be very disappointed.
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
This thread seems much more to be a political diatribe rather than something actually discussing the moon and Mars. The Gun/anti gun, glabal warming/cap and trade, left/right and other issues you brought up seem to fit much better in politics here at Space.com. They were not necessary to discuss the alleged subject of the topic. Have fun.
IF you want to start a thread discussing space issues here at space.com, stick to that subject in the appropriate forum.

I have moved it there, and will leave a link here in Missions and Launches until tomorrow.
 
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thermionic

Guest
I'm not sure if you're paranoid enough. For the sake of bad science, maybe give some detail on this comment:

>>the reality is that a six mile or bigger asteroid may be about to hit us now or in the next hour, day or week.

I know those tin-hat NASA boys have been spotting rocks up in the sky and giving us forwarning that there's a calculated probability of them smacking us, with weeks or years of advance notice. The numbers have been one in a million and so forth. There have been enough of these announcements in the last few years that they've lost the impact they might have. One might even suspect an ulterior motive! Anyway, the reality that we'll get pulverized in the next hour, day, or week doesn't fit with what I've been told of our deep-space monitoring ability and what's been seen with it. Your thoughts?

Apparently we were hit 65 million years ago with something earthshaking, and maybe also 225 million years ago. We've been watching the solar system for some decades now and are getting some short-term statistics. With its huge gravity well, Jupiter seems able to catch a commet or two, but otherwise the impacts have been less drastic. The eggheads study pock-marks on Moon, Mars, and Beyond, and have some estimates of impact rates. We can look up in the sky with our telescopes and count how much clutter is wheeling through space, and its size distribution.

So I'm wondering if a Woodward Report Scholar might include some probabilities and numerical likelihoods in an editorial, beyond 'maybe in the next hour'. Surely some research has been done that Joe Sixpack might be interested in?

Death From Above is actually a commonly mentioned motiviation for developing a space program on these forums. Another is Death by Drowning in our own Polution (global warming hoax?). Other themes that come to mind are profit, and my favorite: shear adventure. There's also national prestige, military advantage, technological spinoffs, medical advances, and more. All in all, a decent case for an agressive space program could be made. Do you figure the asteriod threat is the most compelling of these? Why fixate on just this?
 
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PiotrSatan

Guest
Yeah all nice danny, but you have forgotten that China, European Union, Russia, India, Japan have their own space programs too. Actually the only who is going to be left here is you, if things would be going the same way. So yeah, you yanks, would be stuck on Earth while China and Europe will share mars and titan among themselves. Beat it, America was never and will never be the best.

Yes for Europe! Today Europe tomorrow Earth, then the universe!

PS. Abortion is a civil right. Anybody should have right to abortion.
 
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Danny_Clay

Guest
MeteorWayne":2x981lrv said:
This thread seems much more to be a political diatribe rather than something actually discussing the moon and Mars. The Gun/anti gun, glabal warming/cap and trade, left/right and other issues you brought up seem to fit much better in politics here at Space.com. Have fun.
IF you want to start a thread discussing space issues here at space.com, stick to that subject in the appropriate forum.

I have moved it there, and will leave a link here in Missions and Launches until tomorrow.
I brought up all the politics?????

In my column I mentioned in passing Global Warming being not grounded in real science. A few lines in an entire work on reasons for going to the moon, Mars and beyond. Like what most of Space.Com is about, yet I was told everything I offered was a fantasy by samkent and when I filled out my profile, I told the truth (That's what I was raised to do), so mark_d_s jumps me with all four feet as a right wings nut.

I defended myself from their attacks and yet you make my work the villain?

Is this the Daily Kos or Space.Com?

by PiotrSatan » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:32 pm

Yeah all nice danny, but you have forgotten that China, European Union, Russia, India, Japan have their own space programs too. Actually the only who is going to be left here is you, if things would be going the same way. So yeah, you yanks, would be stuck on Earth while China and Europe will share mars and titan among themselves. Beat it, America was never and will never be the best.

Yes for Europe! Today Europe tomorrow Earth, then the universe!

PS. Abortion is a civil right. Anybody should have right to abortion.
Guess it must be the anti-American section of the Daily Kos, eh?

Is there anyone on this forum that is not ready to jump on anyone that offers up something they do not agree with?
 
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thermionic

Guest
>>If you bait the trap with the correct bait, the vermin will come.

In a civilized forum, this would be called trolling. Luckily we're in free space now!

Hi Satan, Good to see ya! I gather you're European, French perhaps? We were once the Great Satan. Those were the days, all is mediocrity now... Cheers!
 
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Danny_Clay

Guest
thermionic":2z7isfpt said:
I'm not sure if you're paranoid enough.
Now, where in the world would you get that idea when I have had such a warm welcome here?
 
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