Will Orion have a lot of teething problems like Apollo did?

[willpittenger]

Everyone probably remembers Apollo 1. What you might not know was how many short circuits that capsule had before the fire. Furthermore, the LM design was constantly overweight. They also started with a design that looked more like a helicopter than a spacecraft and had to change the round hatch on the front to a square one.<br /><br />How bad will things get for Orion? Are there things we can watch out for? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[jimfromnsf]

"What you might not know was how many short circuits that capsule had before the fire. Furthermore, the LM design was constantly overweight. They also started with a design that looked more like a helicopter than a spacecraft and had to change the round hatch on the front to a square one. "<br /><br />Apollo had a stronger schedule pressure and we were still learning rocket science. The CEV has changed many times, the 606 version is the current one. <br /><br />Apollo is not the proper comparsion. Shuttle is. In general, things will work just like the 1st shuttle flight. However, there will be some tweaking

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Apollo is not the proper comparison. Shuttle is.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Well, since you brought STS up, in the early days, those tiles were falling of like crazy. After the first mission, Columbia came back with a lot of missing tiles. The crew was just fortunate that none were in a vital area. Perhaps we should have seen that as a hint of the costs that would come later with getting each orbiter ready for the next flight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[pathfinder_01]

think that any program manned, unmanned, space or otherwise will have teething troubles. That is just par for the course. As for the shuttle the shuttle too faced intense pressure to be what it could not be. I.e. Have fast turn around times be cheap. I think that a fatal accident was going to happen sooner or latter. There were more problems than just the tiles. Challenger was just the unlucky recipient of the accident.<br /><br />I think the danger of Orion will most likely be in the idea that a capsule it is safe. I also don't think it will be as cheap as Nasa thinks. It will be cheaper to LEO but not quite as dramatic. <br />

 

[jimfromnsf]

"After the first mission, Columbia came back with a lot of missing tiles. "<br /><br />It wasn't a "lot", it was just a few on the OMS pods and it was a refurb issue not safety

 

[holmec]

In a documentary about STS, the comment was made that STS was the first NASA space vehicle to be initially launched with a crew.<br /><br />Now with Orion, will NASA initially launch it without a crew? That is as a test flight. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

What I remember (from 6th grade) was that they could see the missing tiles on the OMS pods. That left everyone worried that some were missing from more important areas like the nose or leading edge of the wings. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[bobblebob]

Teething problems are inevitable for something as complex as a space vehicle . The shuttle/ET still has problems and look how many modifications that has gone through<br />

 

[brandido]

"It wasn't a "lot", it was just a few on the OMS pods and it was a refurb issue not safety"<br /><br />Regardless of whether it was a lot or a few, whether it was a safety or a refurb issue, it did highlight the fact that the TPS system for the Shuttle was fragile. I think the important point the parent poster was trying to make was that this was an important lesson that was not learned.

 

[qso1]

As I'm sure you probably know now, the nose and leading edges of the wings are not tiles. They are RCC panels and there was a lot of concern about the missing OMS pod tiles. I was in the AF at the time and a space hobbyist as always. I saw the tile damage and figured if that was all there was (Just OMS pods), they would be okay.<br /><br />I also recall some unconfirmed reports of DOD classified imaging capability being utilized to inspect the areas of the shuttle not accessable to Young and Crippen. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

brandido:<br />Regardless of whether it was a lot or a few, whether it was a safety or a refurb issue, it did highlight the fact that the TPS system for the Shuttle was fragile. I think the important point the parent poster was trying to make was that this was an important lesson that was not learned.<br /><br />Me:<br />I'd have to say the lessons were learned to a degree. Still, its impossible to know all the lessons spaceflight has to offer. In 1981, STS-1 made its first flight and returned with OMS pod tiles missing. Much better than the 1979 ferry flight of Columbia to the cape in which some 300 far more critical tiles literally zippered off the orbiter during a 300 mph SCA piggybacked flight. In that two year period, a lot of lessons learned and applied.<br /><br />STS-1 through STS-106 were missions in which lessons learned were applied, except for the ones applicable to ET foam. That one grabbed NASA by the short hairs because foam had shed from the tank many times before without incident and some engineers became confident to the point of complacency that the shuttle foam problem was manageable.<br /><br />The major lesson learned for Orion will be quite simple:<br /><br />New thermal protection system. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I was talking about the black tiles just behind the RCC panels. They are quite important. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

That could turn out to be a minor lesson with a few major lessons in tow. Lets hope that Apollo 13 doesn't turn out end up seeming minor next to a fatal Orion mission to the Moon. "Houston, the lander ascent stage won't start." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[bdewoody]

People tend to forget or ignore the "teething" problems that were experienced in the first decade of the jet age. Not only were many good test pilots lost before jets reached operational status there were significant losses after several types were in squadron service.<br /><br />We can never achieve a 100% safety record with something as risky as space flight. We should strive for that goal alway but not abandon manned space flight when the inevitable accident happens.<br /><br />After all we still loose upwards of 40,000 people per year in the USA alone due to automobile crashes. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[bdewoody]

Let's not forget "talking on the cell phone". But my point was that no one is screaming to stop production of automobiles or ban them from use until we can achieve a 100% safety record. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em><font size="2">Bob DeWoody</font></em> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>That could turn out to be a minor lesson with a few major lessons in tow. Lets hope that Apollo 13 doesn't turn out end up seeming minor next to a fatal Orion mission to the Moon. "Houston, the lander ascent stage won't start." <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />That brings up an interesting point. If the astronauts get stranded in lunar orbit or on the lunar surface, what then?<br /><br />I guess the obvious answer is to make the next ship a rescue ship. The Orion capsule is supposed to be remotely operated, how about a lander? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

You will find that each car accident, like Apollo 13, will have many causes. Example: Suppose someone was driving too fast. That does not exclude the possibility that they were drunk or talking on the cell phone. It also doesn't exclude the possibility that weather reduced the traction. Finally, if there was a blowout, what a millisecond ago was a safe speed, now might become dangerous. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>