worm holes/black holes

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kevdog1245

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I have a question, is a black hole some what like a worm hole, and if you lived through a black hole would you be in another part of the universe or in a different time period?
 
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DrRocket

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kevdog1245":364r3ddq said:
I have a question, is a black hole some what like a worm hole, and if you lived through a black hole would you be in another part of the universe or in a different time period?
No. And no.
 
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DrRocket

Guest
MeteorWayne":3jmet25u said:
Why? Physics doesn't allow it!
Precisely.

It is for the same reason that you can't use your kitchen toaster to fly to the moon.
 
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JKMurphy

Guest
ok then, but assuming a black hole is actually a hole and not just some large dent in space wouldn't the remains of what gets sucked in simply be spat out on the other side, weather it is dead or alive?
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
JKMurphy":9hi4jdjt said:
ok then, but assuming a black hole is actually a hole and not just some large dent in space wouldn't the remains of what gets sucked in simply be spat out on the other side, weather it is dead or alive?
No, what goes in a black hole doesn't come out. That's why it's called a black hole
 
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JKMurphy

Guest
MeteorWayne":29nf7nw1 said:
JKMurphy":29nf7nw1 said:
ok then, but assuming a black hole is actually a hole and not just some large dent in space wouldn't the remains of what gets sucked in simply be spat out on the other side, weather it is dead or alive?
No, what goes in a black hole doesn't come out. That's why it's called a black hole
Then explain why some have discovered light/energy coming out from the center of black holes that sit in the middle of a galaxy? (I heard this on a documentary program called 'The universe')

And as a note, I can't believe that an object would just simply dissapear into nothingness for eternity.
 
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drwayne

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"Then explain why some have discovered light/energy coming out from the center of black holes"

The energy that is believed to be originating from such black holes does not in fact come from
the black hole themselves, but rather from the material being pulled into the black hole.

Wayne
 
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DrRocket

Guest
JKMurphy":xl13wndi said:
ok then, but assuming a black hole is actually a hole and not just some large dent in space wouldn't the remains of what gets sucked in simply be spat out on the other side, weather it is dead or alive?
It is becoming clear that you need to learn a bit more about what a black hole really is. It is not a hole through anything, but a region of space-time from which nothing can escape because of the extreme gravitational field, or curvature of space-time.

Probably the best source for your purposes is the book Black Holes and Time Warps; Einstein's Outrageous Legacy by Kip Thorne. Despite the catchy title it is quite a good book. Kip Thorne is an expert in general relativity, the Richard P. Feynman Professor of Physics at Cal Tech, a student of John Archibald Wheeler and along with Wheeler and Charles Misner the author of a standard graduate text on general relativity, Gravitation. Black Holes and Time Warps is written for a general audience and is quite a fun read. Try it.

There is also this Wiki article, but it is a bit more technical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole

And it you really want to get into the nitty-gritty there is Chandrasekhar's The Mathematical Theory of Black Holes but this book is serious physics and takes a lot of background. It is not written for the layman or even for the faint-of-heart professional.
 
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drwayne

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"or even for the faint-of-heart professional."

I resemble that remark!

;)

Wayne
 
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DrRocket

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drwayne":yfz688kh said:
"or even for the faint-of-heart professional."

I resemble that remark!

;)

Wayne

Go feed your avatar some blood. That should provide sufficient fortification. :cool:
 
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mental_avenger

Guest
John Wheeler did everyone a great disservice by labeling these objects “black holes”. I suppose scientists have never changed that term to something more appropriate because they get a chuckle out of people ascribing the characteristics of a hole to these massive objects. I coined the term “hyperdensity” to describe them, which is much more accurate. If you think of a hyperdensity as a very small, extremely dense solid object, instead of as a hole, then all the discussions about “traveling through” them become rather absurd.
 
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JeffreyNYA

Guest
mental_avenger":148qhpak said:
John Wheeler did everyone a great disservice by labeling these objects “black holes”. I suppose scientists have never changed that term to something more appropriate because they get a chuckle out of people ascribing the characteristics of a hole to these massive objects. I coined the term “hyperdensity” to describe them, which is much more accurate. If you think of a hyperdensity as a very small, extremely dense solid object, instead of as a hole, then all the discussions about “traveling through” them become rather absurd.

So where does it end? Will blackholes eventually consume everything and then themselves down to tha last Blackhole? What then? Does the last blackhole with the total of the universes mass end up causing he next big bang and starting everything over agan?

Edit: And will my insurance policy cover it? I have the little green lizard one. hear they are good.
 
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Saiph

Guest
In the 'cold death' version of the end of the universe the universe keeps expanding. Everything is spun far from everything else. The only things close to eachother are gravitationally bound. You'll have cold dead planets around cold dead stellar cores from long dead suns. Black holes will be around, but slowly evaporating due to hawking radiation. The 'hot' gases will disperse to near zero concentrations as they spread out.

The black holes won't magically begin to absorb everything, nor eachother. They'll just drift through this graveyard of cold dispersed gas and rocky planets and dead stars.

Eventually protons will all decay, leaving the neutrons free, which will decay in about 20min if left alone. So normal matter just begins to dissappear, and black holes evaporate, the particles they slowly spew will also fade leaving....nothing but a cool faint wash of photons over an immense and empty universe.
 
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kyle_baron

Guest
drwayne":1r88yhf7 said:
"Then explain why some have discovered light/energy coming out from the center of black holes"

The energy that is believed to be originating from such black holes does not in fact come from
the black hole themselves, but rather from the material being pulled into the black hole.

Wayne
Which is called the accretion disk. The Gamma Ray light beam comes from the accretion disk, which is orbiting the black hole, not the black hole itself. The light beam is created by magnetic fields within the accretion disk, accelerating particles of matter, near the speed of light.
 
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Saiph

Guest
well, very close kyle.

The magnetic field that does most of the 'focusing' and energizing is actually from the black hole. Infalling matter from the accretion disk heats up and moves rapidly, turning into a plasma. The charged particles in the plasma interact with the BH's magnetic field, which rotates rapidly with the BH, further accelerating the material. The magnetic field also funnels the material up from the disk and towards the poles, where it can finally escape, if it's heading in a direction parrallel to the poles.

After all the stirring from the Bh's rapidly rotating magnetic field, the material is moving quite fast.
 
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derekmcd

Guest
Saiph":20fsin4q said:
In the 'cold death' version of the end of the universe the universe keeps expanding. Everything is spun far from everything else. The only things close to eachother are gravitationally bound. You'll have cold dead planets around cold dead stellar cores from long dead suns. Black holes will be around, but slowly evaporating due to hawking radiation. The 'hot' gases will disperse to near zero concentrations as they spread out.

The black holes won't magically begin to absorb everything, nor eachother. They'll just drift through this graveyard of cold dispersed gas and rocky planets and dead stars.

Eventually protons will all decay, leaving the neutrons free, which will decay in about 20min if left alone. So normal matter just begins to dissappear, and black holes evaporate, the particles they slowly spew will also fade leaving....nothing but a cool faint wash of photons over an immense and empty universe.
I don't think it is known if protons decay or not. There are some Grand Unified Theories that posit that they must. However, it has never been observed.
 
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yevaud

Guest
Yes, well, with an estimated Proton half-life 6.6x10^33 years, it's no wonder we may not have seen it (assuming those theories predicting Proton decay are correct, that is).
 
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Dryden88

Guest
Are you kidding me?

This is what frustrates me the most about scientists.

The ego.

You are so educated and stuffed with information you forget.

We are but newborn babies when it comes to physics. If E.T.'s were to appear tommorrow and look at all of your theories they would probably laugh.

Black holes are the biggest mysteries of the universe right now. As far as my understanding goes at the center of a blackhole is a singularity. It is the point were all mass stops existing. At least according to Hawkings. This leads me to believe if this is the explanation then we don't know!

We know nothing. Without going and observing and taking reading we know next to nothing except the surrounding information about the accretion disks.

I am not making fun of you I just want you to remove your brain from your eyes and get a little bit of a frame of reference. In a universe this size anything is possible. We are just trying to understand this the best way we know how. When more information comes out we just will have to adjust. But, please always keep in mind we are still just taking our first breaths after birth. There is a monumental amount about this universe that we just don't know.
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
Dryden88":1gbpho0v said:
Are you kidding me?

This is what frustrates me the most about scientists.

The ego.

You are so educated and stuffed with information you forget.

We are but newborn babies when it comes to physics. If E.T.'s were to appear tommorrow and look at all of your theories they would probably laugh.

Black holes are the biggest mysteries of the universe right now. As far as my understanding goes at the center of a blackhole is a singularity. It is the point were all mass stops existing. At least according to Hawkings. This leads me to believe if this is the explanation then we don't know!

We know nothing. Without going and observing and taking reading we know next to nothing except the surrounding information about the accretion disks.

I am not making fun of you I just want you to remove your brain from your eyes and get a little bit of a frame of reference. In a universe this size anything is possible. We are just trying to understand this the best way we know how. When more information comes out we just will have to adjust. But, please always keep in mind we are still just taking our first breaths after birth. There is a monumental amount about this universe that we just don't know.
You may be frustrated with scientists. We scientists are frustrated with non-scientists, so that's fair

There is not that much ego, just trying to fit the observations into the current understanding of physics. Many non-scientists make up alleged physics and expect it to be accepted. That ain't gonna happen.

We are not newborn babes; in fact we have a darn good understanding. Is it all encompasing? No of course not. Neither is it newborn babes perspective either.

BTW, it's Hawking, not Hawkings. Before you insult the intelligence of someone, it would be best if you could at least address them properly.

Removing ones brain from one's eyes would probably not be a good idea...as it's spoken it's rather a nonsensical statement.

I certainly agree there's a heck of a lot we don't know. That does not by extension imply that what we do know should be ignored either.

Wayne
 
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Dryden88

Guest
"You may be frustrated with scientists. We scientists are frustrated with non-scientists, so that's fair"

Why must it be so. I respect every single one of you. But there are certain people that I believe think there waste doesn't stick and that there word is god. I have also met P.H.D's who are book smart but lack the slightest bit of common sense. I may have gotten a degree at a university (I did take a class in Astronomy though and got an A+ lol) but I have tried to educate myself with as much as I can. I read books and watch anything about astronomy on the Science Channel or Discovery. I defer to your training but I see a dangerous trend in all science lately where there word is the end all be all of everything. Dont they still call these things theories because they haven't been proven yet? Thats at least what I ahve been taught, but I am probbaly wrong because I don't have a PHD.

"We are not newborn babes; in fact we have a darn good understanding. Is it all encompasing? No of course not. Neither is it newborn babes perspective either."

Are you kidding me? 200 years of modern Astronomy and Physics is not even noticed by the universe. The universe is billions of years old and your telling me that in 200 years you guys have a good grasp of it? I see that as egocentric thought not Scientific method. The big picture to me is that we are just beggining to grasp what is out there and the forces that drive it. Dark Matter is a great example. A lot of scientists are absolutley confused by what Dark Matter and Energy really are? I think that is fantastic. That gives you guys a whole new thing to explore and research.

Let's not get this wrong. I love you scientists. You brought us from pooping in the outhouse and bathing once a week to modern society in about 300-400 years. I can not wait to see what you do next. I just think sometimes some of you get a little to full of yourselves and need to be brought down back to earth sometimes. Theories are not facts. at least thats what I was taught.

"BTW, it's Hawking, not Hawkings. Before you insult the intelligence of someone, it would be best if you could at least address them properly."

Wow, really? This is what you are writing about? It's the internet not an English class room. Come on now. OKay, I apologize for leaving the s off his name. Although I will say Hawkings to me is one of the greates Astro-Physicists of all time.

"Removing ones brain from one's eyes would probably not be a good idea...as it's spoken it's rather a nonsensical statement."

This sentence shows how out of touch with common sense you are. J/K It was a metaphor showing that sometimes you let your knowledge get in the way of common sense. Sometimes I think to make room for so much knowledge common sense got nocked out of some of your heads. Thats all and thats not a cut-down. Have you ever heard of "You cant see the trees through the forrest?" Thats what I mean.

"I certainly agree there's a heck of a lot we don't know. That does not by extension imply that what we do know should be ignored either."

I didn't mean to ignore it either. I just meant I want some perspective with it. The power and majesty of the universe is sometimes over powering. Soem things are explained to the masses as facts when they should be explained as theories. Thats all.

By the way. I want to ask you an opinion. I believe the next decade is going to be the greatest in astronomy, physics, and physical space (Like new launch vehicles and private space firms). What do you think? I mean in the next 5-10 years maybe even sooner we might know where a habitable planet may be.
 
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drwayne

Guest
"but I see a dangerous trend in all science lately where there word is the end all be all of everything."

I have seen no such trend, in my lifetime at least. I have grown up around scientists, and have been one for
years.

Scientists, in my experience, are some of the most iconoclastic people one is likely to meet. Most would
like nothing better than to find something that is wrong with the existing model of things.

Wayne
 
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drwayne

Guest
"I believe the next decade is going to be the greatest in astronomy, physics, and physical space."

I would love to agree with that, but I am concerned that looming deficits will end up drastically cutting
funding for science.

I hope I am wrong - the wronger the better
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
BTW, you still messed up Hawking's name :)

It's Hawking.

It's a simple matter of respect to spell the name of scientists correctly, not because it's an English class.

Wayne
 
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