Would Apollo 1's crew have survived if launched?

[willpittenger]

Suppose the fire we know has Apollo 1 never happened. Would the crew have survived a mission in that craft? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[pathfinder_01]

Yes and No. The pure oxygen environment was a bomb waiting to happen. A fire either during launch or reentry would have killed a crew at any time. It was only a matter of luck that the pure oxygen hadn’t killed a previous crew as all American Manned Spacecraft up to that time used it. Like the Challenger or the Columbia disasters latter it was cause not by some freak event, but by a design flaw that worked well many times, until it didn’t work at all. <br /><br />The modifications made were doors that could be blown off, and adding a launch pad escape system as well as switching to oxygen/nitrogen during launch (unfortunately they couldn’t switch to nitrogen for the whole flight due to mass). In addition fire resistant materials were added to the cabin and the electrical system made less prone to shorting. From no on fire and escape on the pad were going to be considered for every flight. <br /><br />

 

[willpittenger]

Well, supposedly, they had a quick release valve for use in space. Between that and the reduced pressure used in space, I was thinking more of non-fire dangers. That capsule was chock full of pproblems. Remember Grissom hanging that lemon on it? I do not know why he thought it was safe to get into let alone fly. As he asked Mission Control just before he died, "If we can't hear each other between buildings, how can we communicate with the moon?" I may have gotten the quote wrong. It was omitted from both the Apollo 1 and Gus Grissom articles at Wikipedia. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[qso1]

I have that quote in my books but don't have ready access to it at this time. Grissom was a test pilot first and foremost so even he probably though the bugs would be worked out after he hung the lemon on the craft. That was his way of saying he didn't quite think Apollo ready. But by the time he climed into the craft for a routine plugs out test, he apparently though it was ready or assumed there would be no serious problems during a routine ground test. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

People often forget the advantages of a pure O2 atmosphere for Apollo. Pure O2 means lower internal pressurer and therefore lighter pressure cabin structure. It also means no risk from the bends in the event of a sudden decompression. no prebreath before an EVA and a greatly simplified life support system.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[tomnackid]

Lets make this clear: The Apollo I fire happened because the cabin environment for the test was pure oxygen AT FULL ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE. Under actual flight conditions the capsule would operate on pure oxygen at only 5 pounds per square inch. Pure oxygen at 5 psi gives you the same total number of oxygen molecules available for respiration (or combustion) as 20% oxygen at 14 psi (atmospheric pressure). So the overall threat of fire is no greater than under normal conditions. The test could not be run under flight conditions since if the capsule were pumped down to 5 psi in the atmosphere it would crumple like an empty beer can. If the test had been run using oxygen/nitrogen at full pressure then the faulty wiring may have been detected without turning into a deadly inferno.

 

[alokmohan]

Nice topic.Russian exaple I did not know.Mercifully Appollo 1 did not go.

 

[alokmohan]

The fire spread quickly and within seconds was out of control. As a result of toxic smoke and malfunctioning gas masks, ground crew needed five minutes to open the hatch and suppress the flames. The fire had melted the astronauts' space suits and the air lines which connected them to the capsule's life support systems. Grissom's and White's suits were found to have fused together. It was evident from how the bodies lay that they had tried to get out, but they never had a chance. Ed White, who was supposed to open the hatch, was partway out of his harness and had apparently made an effort to escape. The procedure would have had Grissom lower White's headrest, and White proceed to unlatch over 12 bolts to release the hatch. Indeed, even if he were to accomplish that, the internal pressure had risen so high that the inward-opening hatch could not have been opened. Chaffee's job was to begin shutting down the spacecraft and maintain communications with ground control. He was found dead still strapped into his right hand seat. Only 17 seconds from the first call of "Fire!", all three were dead.<br /><br />It was later confirmed that the crew had actually died of smoke inhalation rather than burns. According to the Report of the Apollo 204 Review Board — Appendix D Panel 11, (link provided below), Grissom suffered third degree burns on 36% of his body (1st, 2nd and 3rd degree burns covered 60% of his body) and his spacesuit was 70% destroyed. White suffered third degree burns on 40% of his body (1st, 2nd and 3rd degree burns covered 48% of his body) and his spacesuit was 25% destroyed. Chaffee suffered third degree burns on 23% of his body (1st, 2nd and 3rd degree burns covered 29% of his body) and his spacesuit was 15% destroyed.<br /><br />The company that produced the command module, North American Aviation, had originally suggested that the hatch open outward and be <br />

 

[MeteorWayne]

Alokhoman,<br />What was the source that you quoted. Just curious? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Everyone seems convinced that when I started this thread, I was thinking only of the fire danger. However, as I keep attempting to point out, I was including all sources of danger. For all we know, that capsule would have leaked while in space. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

That was Cosmonaut Valentin Bondarenko, who died in a fire during a long duration chamber experiment before Vostok 1. He was 24. Some sources say that this led to a switch from O2 to N2-O2 atmospheres in Vostok.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

"For all we know, that capsule would have leaked while in space."<br /><br />There were no reported leak problems with the Apollo 1 CM I am aware of.<br /><br />BTW, Grissom did not hang a lemon in the CM, that's an urban myth. He hung one in the CM simulator, which was having its own technical difficulties unrealted to the actual flight hardware.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[strandedonearth]

IIRC the capsule was actually being tested with 5 psi ABOVE atmospheric pressure, for a total of 19 psi of pure oxygen, so the fire risk was definitely extreme. It would have been easy for something to spontaneously combust.

 

[baktothemoon]

Did they ever find the exact point of ignition for the fire?

 

[qso1]

Not that I am aware. They blamed it on a chafed wire bundle which there was a picture of which would presumably mean that the fire started there. However, the origin of the fire was not ever exactly known.<br /><br />The Wiki description and link below:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1<br />The fire is believed to have been caused by a spark somewhere in the capsule's 50 km (31 miles) of wiring. Due to the pure oxygen inside the capsule (which was at a pressure of 15 psi or 100 kPa) the fire was quickly out of control. The Apollo 204 Review Board determined that a silver-plated copper wire running through an environmental control unit near the command module pilot's couch had become stripped of its insulation and abraded by repeated opening and closing of an associated access door. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[tomnackid]

Good post except the Partial Pressure of oxygen at sea level is 2.9 psi not 5 psi. That is why I said there was more risk in flight at 5 psi of oxygen vs normal sea level of 2.9 psi. <br />-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Oops, my mistake. Spacesuits typically operate at 2.9 to 3 psi. An advantage of Apollo and Skylab over the Shuttle, ISS, and Soyue is that you can go from 5 psi pure O2 to a spacesuit and EVA without any pre-breath to avoid the bends. <br /><br />BTW: Does anyone know why the Apollo operated at 5 psi rather than 2.9?

 

[JonClarke]

The prebreath issue is important when we start planning lunar and Mars missions. Lengthy prebreaths are not a good option when EVAs are happening several times a week.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

So you want a suit that has a nitrogen/oxygen mix and the same pressure as the vehicle? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

No, I want an O2 suit and a spacecraft atmosphere that does not need a prebreath. Something like 200 mB O2 and 300 mB N2 would be fine. Bit like Skylab, which had a 333 mB atmosphere with a mix of 233 mB O2 and 100 mB N2. This gives a reasonable but not too high a internal pressure, avoids excessive O2 and N2 partial pressures and thuis risk of fire and the bends.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Dear Meteor,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1