Yet another black hole question....

[ramayana]

If big bang theory states our universe began as a single point ‘singularity’.<br />I don’t understand why this singularity would not have just formed a super massive black hole? Wouldn’t this singularity have gravity? <br /><br />I am not positive, but I think this thread <font color="blue"> Is a stable singularity possible? Origin of the universe </font>is saying that our universe would not be here if this singularity didn’t have spin? Or I may be completely wrong!<br />So why did we get a blast instead of a hole?<br />

 

[search]

Good question<br />Well we do not know what is at or before the singularity so we do not know if a black hole is or not present there. <br /><br />Remember we can only see (detect is more correct) as far back as until the CMBR (cosmic microwave background radiation) which is believed to correspond to ~380 000 yrs after the Big Bang.<br /><br />Before that its only a lot of brain and computer storming based on the data from WMAP, COBE and few handfull other CMBR detecting systems.<br /><br />In another thread (not the one you mentioned) this is adressed:<br /><br />Link<br /><br />Black Holes do not suck up everything. Only what is at or inside the Event Horizon, meaning that even if the singularity would be BH we would probably still be here unaffected.<br /><br />Compare with the massive star sequence:<br />A massive star burns fuel and inflates burning the inner layers, finnaly when no more fuel is available it explodes as a supernova and its core collapses onto itself either as a neutron star or as a black hole. However the remanents of this explosion are not affected by the BH since they were ejected before the formation of the BH and are outside of the event horizon.<br /><br />So if you imagine the Big Bang as "superhypernova" (this term is an invention just for the explanation) even if there would be a BH we are unaffected and we cannot see it.

 

[a_lost_packet_]

A "singularity" is that point at which known means of theorizing further break down. In short, physics/computational models fall apart, go infinite and generally lose their marbles.... We don't "know" what lies beyond the singularity in any model. (Consider it a "Fatal Error", "Page Fault", "404 Error" or "Blue Screen of Death" to use computer terms.) So, the "singularity" could just be some point of mass stretching across dimensions or something could happen at that point in the model that makes no sense given the limits of our knowledge at the moment. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[ramayana]

I'm on to a bigger thought now after reading the repies <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br />Question, I know this may be an odd question, but would this hypothetical <font color="black">superhyernova</font>create the radiation we detect in the CMBR?

 

[ramayana]

On the first question and replies... So in the <i>beginning</i><b> if</b> it was a black hole singularity, what could cause it to give up its grip and explode? <br />Wouldn't it also <i>have</i> to be something like if not exactly like a BH singularity? I mean if we took everything we can define in the universe and put in one area wouldn't it inevitably form a black hole? Or is it possible it would just creat some supermassive star? But then again we theorize there wouldn't be the atoms to create a star since atoms dind't form till after the big bang... <br />I'm visualizing a cat chasing his tail here.. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I understand we can't see this far back, I'm just exploring ideas <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />PS I am aware I am really not smart enough to be playing with these ideas... lmao!<br /><br />So if you would rather tell me to bug off than correct my logic... Is a perfectly valid response! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[search]

No, "bug off" would not be a perfect valid response it would be a failed response.<br />These ideas are indeed big so big that even the brightest minds did not answer them in the past and still cannot answer them at present time.<br />The idea of Big Bang having been a singularity in standard cosmology [meaning in the science common accepted cosmology theory (ies)] means only that at that particular moment the universe was created and the physical laws that we now use did not exist or were not applicable (the laws break down). <br /><br />"The simplest Big Bang cosmological model of the universe contains a causal singularity at the start of time (t=0), where all timelike geodesics have no extensions into the past. Extrapolating backward to this hypothetical time 0 results in a universe of size 0 in all spatial dimensions, infinite density, infinite temperature, and infinite space-time curvature. However, the basic Big Bang model does not include quantum effects, and its predictions are valid only up to a point. At that point in the calculations, we are down to an astonishingly small size, high density, high temperature, and high curvature, but they are all finite, and the distance from there to infinity is, well, infinite.<br />Other physics can open up the model to a time before the Big Bang, which then evolves from a very small region of spacetime with a complete past, rather than from a point. In such models, multiple Big Bangs can evolve from regions in a much larger space. No tests of such models have been identified."<br /><br />The idea of the Big Bang being a result of a black hole is actually not what has been posted. <br /><br />The idea is that the a black hole could be the result of a supermassive star which exploded into a supernova. But yet again this is just an idea which still have not been tested.<br /><br /> Check http://uplink.space.com/showthreade...608740&page=0&view=expanded&s</safety_wrapper

 

[search]

"In cosmology, the cosmic microwave background radiation (most often abbreviated CMB but occasionally CMBR, CBR or MBR, also referred as relic radiation) is a form of electromagnetic radiation discovered in 1965 that fills the entire universe. It has a thermal 2.725 kelvin black body spectrum which peaks in the microwave range at a frequency of 160.4 GHz, corresponding to a wavelength of 1.9 mm. Most cosmologists consider this radiation to be the best evidence for the hot big bang model of the universe."<br /><br />There are two types of supernovae:<br />The ones resulting from massive stars (15 or more times the sun) and those which occur because of mass transfer onto a white dwarf in a binary system. The result however is the same just the starting process differs.<br /><br />The hot material given off by the supernova, the radioactive isotopes, and the free electrons moving in the strong magnetic field of the neutron star... all of these things produce X-rays and gamma rays.<br /><br />Electromagnetic Spectrum or Same and idem<br /><br />So you see that CMBR is on the other side of the spectrum but that is not a problem. CMBR is the remaining radiation from what happened long, long time ago, the Big Bang:<br /><br />According to the big-bang model, the universe expanded rapidly from a highly compressed primordial state, which resulted in a significant decrease in density and temperature. Soon afterwards, the dominance of matter over antimatter (as observed today) may have been established by processes that also predict proton decay. During this s

 

[agnau]

Just to play on a thought I had:<br />Suppose instead that the big bang was the formation of a supermassive blackhole, not its collapse, and we are on the inside of said blackhole. Therefore, as the blackhole expands (bringing in more engery -- I know, violation of conservation) the outer environment is interacting with us.<br /><br />This thought would make the background radiation actually the shell of the original stellar material and we are viewing it's state just before collapse.<br /><br />Of course, black/white hole transitions are again, only theoretical.

 

[search]

Remember. No one knows how a black hole is inside. If that would be the case we would be wondering about what is going on inside a Universe (the outside of a black hole).

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<i>Question, I know this may be an odd question, but would this hypothetical superhyernova create the radiation we detect in the CMBR?</i><br /><br />Interesting notion.<br /><br />The elephant and the event horizon by Amanda Gefter (New Scientist)<br /><br />26 October 2006<br /><br />What happens when you throw an elephant into a black hole? It sounds like a bad joke, but it's a question that has been weighing heavily on Leonard Susskind's mind. Susskind, a physicist at Stanford University in California, has been trying to save that elephant for decades. He has finally found a way to do it, but the consequences shake the foundations of what we thought we knew about space and time. If his calculations are correct, the elephant must be in more than one place at the same time....<br /><br />In 1997, Maldacena developed a type of string theory in a universe with five large dimensions of space and a contorted space-time geometry. He showed that this theory, which includes gravity, is equivalent to an ordinary quantum field theory, without gravity, living on the four-dimensional boundary of that universe. Everything happening on the boundary is equivalent to everything happening inside: ordinary particles interacting on the surface correspond precisely to strings interacting on the interior.<br /><br />This is remarkable because the two worlds look so different, yet their information content is identical. The higher-dimensional strings can be thought of as a "holographic" projection of the quantum particles on the surface, similar to the way a laser creates a 3D hologram from the information contained on a 2D surface. Even though Maldacena's universe was very different from ours, the elegance of the theory suggested that our universe might be something of a grand illusion - an enormous cosmic hologram (<i>New Scientist</i>, 27 April 2002, p 22

 

[oscar1]

This is all fair and well, but it will remain speculation forever. We do expect immense gravity at a black hole, so if one would near one, one gets sucked in and is reduced to far less than a quark. No one asks what happens when one nears a star, for it is regarded logic that apart from what effect gravity has on one in that case, one knows one will fry before evaporating. A star. like a black hole, is simply a no-go area.<br /><br />The reason why we are wondering what will happen when we would near and go into a black hole, seems to be the 'magic' attributed to a singularity. This apparent 'magic', I think, is based on our method of thinking, which finds its origin in the logic of survival here on good old Earth. <br /><br />To my mind, the universe is like a piece of chewed on chewing gum, where it is pulled apart, resulting in a string, getting longer and thinner. We came about and can only thrive in this string getting longer and thinner, while a black hole is dorment chewing gum, an environment, or dimension so you wish, where we simply cannot be.

 

[nexium]

The singularity at the time of the big bang t = 0 had lots more potential mass than the singularity in a super massive black hole. Some of the laws of physics were likely different, perhaps very different, so we are talking about two very different kinds of singularity.<br />Likely all high mass black holes have deadly accreation disks and deadly polar jets. Less than one hundred solar mass black holes have have extreem tidal forces just outside the event horizon, so it is unlikely that one can reach the event horizon alive, even if the accreation disk and jets are puny. Neil

 

[ramayana]

Great posts/replies people... Very imformative! Thank you so much <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<i>This is all fair and well, but it will remain speculation forever.</i><br /><br />I'm not so sure. What it would be like to visit the Moon was supposed to be speculation forever. Yet, three decades ago, we visited it. Six times. Who knows what the future may hold?<br /><br /><i>We do expect immense gravity at a black hole, so if one would near one, one gets sucked in and is reduced to far less than a quark. No one asks what happens when one nears a star, for it is regarded logic that apart from what effect gravity has on one in that case, one knows one will fry before evaporating. A star. like a black hole, is simply a no-go area.</i><br /><br />Most - perhaps all - black holes are likely to resemble, on various scales, the beast at the heart of M87. They will be of the rotating variety. They are not simple Schwarzschild black holes, but spinning Kerr-Newman items containing ring singularities. Compressed to a quark? Not unless you pass through the event horizon at the plane of rotation. Every indication suggests it is still a kamikaze run, except in some black holes you may actually survive till you reach the Cauchy horizon, where you are vaporized by all the other accelerated matter and radiation arriving at the same time you do.<br /><br /><i>This apparent 'magic', I think, is based on our method of thinking, which finds its origin in the logic of survival here on good old Earth.</i><br /><br />Good point. Our 'common sense' is derived directly from our evolutionary experience here on Earth and is suited to our terrestrial environment. What makes sense on Earth, however, may not make sense within a black hole.<br /><br /><i>To my mind, the universe is like a piece of chewed on chewing gum, where it is pulled apart, resulting in a string, getting longer and thinner. We came about and can only thrive in this string getting longer and thinner, while a black hole is dorment chewing gum, an environment, or dimension so you wish, where we simply cannot be.</i><br /><</safety_wrapper>

 

[alokmohan]

The singularity is 10 to the power minus 35.It contains all mass of black hole.From singularity to event horizon is empty.So density at singularity is billion billio billion billion times that of water.What is in singularity is matter of research.One canot even theoritically reach singuarity.The tidal foces there are chaotic and they break atoms ,quarks.

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<i>The possibility exists that other relics from the early universe may eventually be discovered.</i><br /><br />Physicists find a way to 'see' extra dimensions by Jill Sakai (University of Wisconsin—Madison)<br /><br />February 2, 2007<br /><br /><i>. . . "Our idea was to go back in time and see what happened back then," says Shiu. "Of course, we couldn't really go back in time."<br /><br />Lacking the requisite time machine, they used the next-best thing: a map of cosmic energy released from the big bang. The energy, captured by satellites such as NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), has persisted virtually unchanged for the last 13 billion years, making the energy map basically "a snapshot of the baby universe," Shiu says....<br /><br />Technological improvements to capture more detailed cosmic maps should help narrow down the possibilities and may allow scientists to crack the code of the cosmic energy map - and inch closer to identifying the single geometry that fits our universe. <br /><br />The implications of such a possibility are profound, says Tye. "If this shape can be measured, it would also tell us that string theory is correct."</i><br /><br />Pretty cool relic, if it can be found.

 

[alokmohan]

But possibily we cannot perceive more than three dimension just as any living being not having sense of third dimension cannot perceive third dimension.

 

[why06]

<b>Very interesting discussion</b>,<br />Not going to reply since my guess is as good as anyone elses just reading along.<br /><br />-<font color="yellow">Keep asking questions Ramayana<font color="white">-</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[serak_the_preparer]

<i>We don't "know" what lies beyond the singularity in any model. (Consider it a "Fatal Error", "Page Fault", "404 Error" or "Blue Screen of Death" to use computer terms.)</i><br /><br />This follow-up to Hawking's insight into the black hole information paradox establishes, in the words of a professor from the University of York, that 'quantum information can run but it can’t hide.' And points to new physics just beyond the event horizon:<br /><br />A hidden twist in the black hole information paradox (University of York)<br /><br />27 February 2007<br /><br /><i>. . . In the mid 1970s, Stephen Hawking showed that black holes eventually evaporate away in a steady stream of featureless radiation containing no information. But if a black hole has completely evaporated, where has the information about it gone? This long standing question is known as the black hole information paradox. <br /><br />Now, Professor Braunstein and Dr Pati have ruled out the possibility that information might escape from the black hole but be somehow hidden in correlations between the Hawking radiation and the black hole’s internal state. Braunstein and Pati’s result demonstrates that the black hole information paradox is even more severe than previously believed. <br /><br />Dr Pati said: "Our result shows that either quantum mechanics or Hawking’s analysis must break down, but it does not choose between these two possibilities." <br /><br />Professor Braunstein said: "The no-hiding theorem provides new insight into the different laws governing classical and quantum information. It shows that there’s got to be new physics out there."</i>

 

[alokmohan]

But is the information available or not?Or it escapes?

 

[alokmohan]

http://arstechnica.com/journals/science.ars/2007/03/14/the-information-paradox-gets-worseWaaay back in the dark ages—1970, for those of you with an aversion to flares—Steven Hawking predicted that black holes were not black. He showed that at the event horizon, a small amount of radiation would be emitted. In normal space, pairs of particles are continuously generated from vacuum fluctuations. These particle will then collide and annihilate—leaving no evidence of their existence. However, at the edge of a black hole event horizon, there is always the chance that one of the pair will cross over the event horizon—never to return—leaving the remaining particle to decay away into light. Hawking showed that this would happen at a specific rate for a given black hole size and that it reduced the mass of the black hole. This presented a conundrum to physicists because the radiation itself is featureless—it reveals no information about the internal state of the black hole. <br /><br />To understand the significance of this, consider a black hole that is absorbing matter and light at a rate that is equal to the amount of Hawking radiation it emits. The black hole's mass does not change at all; however, all that matter and light has a certain amount of structure. From the perspective of thermodynamics, the black hole's entropy must increase, and, in fact, could become infinitely large. Thinking about this from an information theory perspective, where erasing one bit of information requires adding one bit of entropy to the universe, the black hole is erasing information without contributing entropy to the universe. <br /><br />To resolve this issue, many physicists turned to quantum mechanics, and the possibility of entanglement. It was argued that, although Hawking radiation does not carry information itself, the information is preserved in correlations betwe

 

[sgullberg]

I think its completely possible that our universe was created by a Black Hole. When the “Big Bang” occurred I think that an extremely enormous Black Hole had collected so much matter (planets, stars, comets, light, etc.) that it exploded all of this matter through the other end, typically known as the White Hole. The Black Hole is in a separate dimension and this is where matter is sucked in. The Black Hole will store this matter until it has so much of it that it cannot hold anymore causing a massive burst of matter through its exit passage, or White Hole. The White Hole is the entry point for new matter into a new universe/dimension. For example, I think that our galaxy and any other galaxies were formed by periodic explosions from a number of White Holes that may be located in this realm/dimension/universe/plane of existence (whatever you want to call it). We then float around in space. <br />Our galaxy in particular has a Black Hole located at it’s galactic center. Some people, including myself, believe that we will approach this Black Hole and our galactic center around the year 2012. If our solar system happens to breach the Black Hole’s Event Horizon then we will all be sucked into it. We may travel through it immediately and come out of the White Hole in a new dimension or universe. It is also possible that we will be stuck inside of the Black Hole until it decides to push us through its exit hole into a new world. Think about our human bodies as a small microcosm of the way the universe works. We eat food and “matter” into our “Black Hole”, which is our mouth. It travels through the intestines or “worm hole” until it reaches its exit point or “White Hole”, where the matter is released back into the world. These are just my thoughts but let me know what you think. Am I crazy or do you think this makes any sense?<br />

 

[sgullberg]

I think its completely possible that our universe was created by a Black Hole. When the “Big Bang” occurred I think that an extremely enormous Black Hole had collected so much matter (planets, stars, comets, light, etc.) that it exploded all of this matter through the other end, typically known as the White Hole. The Black Hole is in a separate dimension and this is where matter is sucked in. The Black Hole will store this matter until it has so much of it that it cannot hold anymore causing a massive burst of matter through its exit passage, or White Hole. The White Hole is the entry point for new matter into a new universe/dimension. For example, I think that our galaxy and any other galaxies were formed by periodic explosions from a number of White Holes that may be located in this realm/dimension/universe/plane of existence (whatever you want to call it). We then float around in space. <br />Our galaxy in particular has a Black Hole located at it’s galactic center. Some people, including myself, believe that we will approach this Black Hole and our galactic center around the year 2012. If our solar system happens to breach the Black Hole’s Event Horizon then we will all be sucked into it. We may travel through it immediately and come out of the White Hole in a new dimension or universe. It is also possible that we will be stuck inside of the Black Hole until it decides to push us through its exit hole into a new world. Think about our human bodies as a small microcosm of the way the universe works. We eat food and “matter” into our “Black Hole”, which is our mouth. It travels through the intestines or “worm hole” until it reaches its exit point or “White Hole”, where the matter is released back into the world. These are just my thoughts but let me know what you think. Am I crazy or do you think this makes any sense?<br />

 

[sgullberg]

I think its completely possible that our universe was created by a Black Hole. When the “Big Bang” occurred I think that an extremely enormous Black Hole had collected so much matter (planets, stars, comets, light, etc.) that it exploded all of this matter through the other end, typically known as the White Hole. The Black Hole is in a separate dimension and this is where matter is sucked in. The Black Hole will store this matter until it has so much of it that it cannot hold anymore causing a massive burst of matter through its exit passage, or White Hole. The White Hole is the entry point for new matter into a new universe/dimension. For example, I think that our galaxy and any other galaxies were formed by periodic explosions from a number of White Holes that may be located in this realm/dimension/universe/plane of existence (whatever you want to call it). We then float around in space. <br />Our galaxy in particular has a Black Hole located at it’s galactic center. Some people, including myself, believe that we will approach this Black Hole and our galactic center around the year 2012. If our solar system happens to breach the Black Hole’s Event Horizon then we will all be sucked into it. We may travel through it immediately and come out of the White Hole in a new dimension or universe. It is also possible that we will be stuck inside of the Black Hole until it decides to push us through its exit hole into a new world. Think about our human bodies as a small microcosm of the way the universe works. We eat food and “matter” into our “Black Hole”, which is our mouth. It travels through the intestines or “worm hole” until it reaches its exit point or “White Hole”, where the matter is released back into the world. These are just my thoughts but let me know what you think. Am I crazy or do you think this makes any sense?<br />

 

[alokmohan]

Universe originated from white hole.Matter was spewed out side.Just reverse of black hole.