$700 million dream.

[rhapsodyinspace2]

If you had access to $700 million and wanted to get a space business up and running and get into space quickly, how would you go about it? and what list of things would you bring?

I would like to have a salvage business and use the salvage to create a station/vehicle. So bringing a foundry or machine shop into space seems the best bet to me?

How much power would a solar panel array need to provide if it was making lets say 5 4x8x3/4 steel(preferrably stainless steel)panels in a foundry a day? how big or how many solar panels would be needed?

my plan would be a 4 part plan, 1) station/vehicle. 2) salvage operation. 3) go to the moon. 4)go to outer planets/asteroid belt.

is there a list of items or inventory that the apollo missions took with them to the moon?

Thanks for any help you might give me!

 

[Boris_Badenov]

and what list of things would you bring?

Unobtainium.

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

lol....thanks! But really it would seem you could get something done? it costs about $550 million for a space shuttle launch, so I would think you could get at least 2 good loads into space, so what would i need basically? And i have plenty of unobtainium....lol. there has got to be lots of space ready leftovers just sitting around that has been cut for budget reasons alone. like modules destined for the I.S.S. that were cut just sitting around. so why not?

 

[bray_d]

This all speaks to something I have been thinking about lately. If we want to get out into space and live there, how do we build our infrastructure out there?

Things like salvage and mining will be an important part of that. I wonder if anyone has ever taken the time to think out the process like you seems to be doing.

If you wanted to start with a station, Bigelow Aerospace might one day be the way to go. They are working on putting up modules that expand like ballons. These modules can be connected together to create a large station.

As fo the solar panel question, I am unsure. Can you even build a forge in outer space? I'd imagine it would be extremely heavy to launch from Earth. What you you do with the metal you forge in space? If you plan on returning it to Earth, how? You can't just go dropping it anywhere you want. If you plan on leaving it in space, how do you plan on utilizing it? Has anyone ever tried to weld in space? It seems like there might be difficulties in that.

 

[Boris_Badenov]

PermanentProjects to Employ Resources of the Moon and Asteroids Near Earth in the Near Term
You'll find the answers to many of your questions on this website. $700 million will barely get you to orbit if at all at this time.

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

As to the forge in space question I would figure on starting it small and working towards making it larger in space as time and material present itself.

Once someone or a company is present in space the space powers would permit the salvage of their main stages, as an example the space shuttles external tank takes more fuel to get it to fall into the ocean then it takes to keep it in orbit. They would let someone take care of it if a salvage operation was present!(that would give them more payload with the fuel savings. A win win for all involved!)

To make your station all you would need is 3 external tanks(2 tanks for the spokes and 1 tank for the hub.) A space shuttle external tank is 153 ft. long, 2 of those gets you to 300 ft. add a tank as a hub, spin it and hopefully that gets you a small station moving with some form of artificial gravity.

The forge would indeed be heavy, that is why I would keep it small say just producing just 5 sheets of plate steel a day. A single 4x8x¾ plate would be just 2 ¾ cubic feet of material so for 5 plates you would need the forge to hold just 13.75 cubic feet(about the volume of my coffee table…lol). With that I would imagine you could do a good days work considering your producing them then dragging them outside, welding them in a space suit.

I would use the forge to build my station/vehicle. Everything produced would be for space use, no returning the finished product to earth.

Welding the sheets I believe would be an electron welders job.

Now the solar array would be tricky. Just how big it would need to be to melt(taking several hours at a high temperature), hold at the temperature and produce the sheets I do not know?

So I would think you would have to plan to bring a sizable solar array with you also?

How many solar panels does the I.S.S. employ? And how much power does it put out?

One way to help the solar question is in the salvage operation side of the business. I was very surprised when I researched just what kind of space junk is out there. Many of those are defunct satellites.

How many of those satellites salvaged could have working solar panels who can say? Seeing as most of the reasons are age related to satellites going off-line, bad batteries, navigation not working etc. etc…I would think if just 15% of salvaged satellites would be more then enough to get me to the power level you would need to get the 5 steel sheet goal per day?

As to start off for a habitat moduleto begin my work I was thinking there are several modules that were built for the I.S.S. that were dropped from the I.S.S. because of the shuttle tragedies and budget constraints. So why not offer them $30-40 million for one and send it up to the station anyway(the modules are already space ready so no R&D time required.). It would be your starting off point and I believe that anyone who has a valid reason to space can actually attach a module to the station for free? You just got to get it there! Just get one of the minor space partners to help sponsor you.

So with this in mind, going back to the main question. What would you bring? I would hope you would get 2 payloads on 2 different launches? So where do we go from here?

So the question I guess is with 2 payloads to fill and this as the goal, what would you bring?

Thank you Boris I like that site. I am just starting to get into the site. Thank you!

 

[emudude]

I think it would be the cheapest to have production facilities on the moon first, because we could use solar powered mass drivers to launch payloads into space...much, much cheaper than launching anything from earth. I don't know much about mining technology, but if we could identify useful materials and bring the most basic machines (i.e. machines that can produce metal plates, etc), we could start with a small-scale industry in a few decades. It will have to be an international effort though, and that could increase the time this would realistically take quite substantially if our governments decide to be stubborn

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

Lord have mercy Emudude thanks, but you lost me at “decades” …rrrrrrrrrrrr(lol). I am thinking small, an individual or a few folks who go into space to start/shake things up. Like the pilgrims of yesteryear. Folks who are just tired of waiting to see not just the dawn of space travel but want to feel the artificial gravity under their feet on a daily basis! Damn it! Where is my Jetsons space car already? Lucy, get Hanna Barbera on the phone….someone’s got some splannin’ to do!

Anyway….rrrrrrrrrrr

I am talking 2 payloads, load up a wagon feed the horse, errr…the mule…Boris has reminded me I can’t afford a horse! Lol…and set out into the sunset….lol

The difference between now and the pilgrims are…The trip was unsafe…and they went anyway. They gave up their lives, their homes and went out there.

Today its got to be safe, governments go crazy nearly shutting down their programs over a failure in a program when it is a miracle they ever get off the ground in the first place. A failure is treated like cancer in a body when the failure should be treated like a cold. Take something for it and go about your business. Get up and head to the heavens. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr…blah blah blah…ERRR.. I can’t find my soapbox!…lol

Anyway…….

To answer you, with only 2 payloads going into space. I would have to bring something to make a vehicle to get me to the moon to set up and mine stuff. So bringing a small foundry to take advantage of space junk from the start just seems to be a good step to me.


And off subject…..I think they should let the Space Shuttles go out with some dignity! The last few launches should be done close together(with in a month.) launch them into space and have them dock at the I.S.S. 3 shuttles in space together(Hell we have not even had 2 in space at any one time…rrrrr) This would create a world record of humans in space(Be about 27 people I believe?) And give them a goodbye send off nobody would forget!

Just saying! Go out with a whopper of a record!

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

I have not figured out how much power or how many solar panels would be needed for the foundry to make 5 4x8x3/4 steel plates a day, but have found that lightweight mirrors can help a bunch in that process of making the 5 4x8x3/4 sheets a day.(Thank you Boris, the permanant site helped!)

Another question comes to my mind. In doing some research I found that the Space Shuttles external tank's skin is less then a half inch thick! The question is should any vehicle/station I plan have 1/2 thick steel plate ? or should I continue with the 4x8x3/4 sheet plan?
/aluminum plate?

If a thinner skin is desired for a particular reason then that could/should(?) change some aspects of the foundrys size sending up a slightly smaller one.(which is very heavy) and would add more payload(extra solar panels or oreo cookies!)

How thick is the outer skin on say a normal space station module? I couldnt find that referance? Thanks for any help!

 

[emudude]

Quick question: why should we really be focusing on producing metal sheets, when a robotic drill could take us below the lunar surface for next to nothing? Who cares if we have to make due with having dirt walls when we could construct gigantic caverns for lunar production with little need for anything more than a metal surface hatch to keep the cavern airtight?

The bottom line here: the moon is a giant hunk of mass which will protect us from the perils of space: killer flying debris (even micrometeoroids), radiation, the vacuum environment (and as an extension, the low temperature). The moon is a floating heaven of metals with significantly cheaper launch costs than Earth. If I win a lottery, I'm starting the first company to exploit the lunar bounties; I'm in computer engineering, but I have quite a few friends who would help me design systems for use for free who I could compensate after...amazing what you can do with some friends and a lottery win :lol: ...perhaps if I get in the mood, I'll do some serious talking and consider looking for grants when we can prove our concepts (with the recession, I have loads of scientific and engineering expertise at my disposal, alot of my friends have been unable to secure employment after graduation ).

We'll just have to see what the prospector satellites currently orbiting the moon can uncover for now...just out of curiosity though, how do we find valuable minerals on earth, and how could this be applied to lunar materials reclamation?

 

[Socratica]

We'll just have to see what the prospector satellites currently orbiting the moon can uncover for now...just out of curiosity though, how do we find valuable minerals on earth, and how could this be applied to lunar materials reclamation?

Geologists / geophysicists undertake mineral exploration activities that include remote sensing and magneteromic & gravity surveys of an area. Drilling boreholes is another method.

I'm a new undergrad geologist myself and so this stuff fascinates me as I'm an alt-space buff too. I hope to be able to contribute worthwhile information as time passes. I am hoping there will eventually be a lunar-mineral exploration geologist profession or some sort! I think the people best equipped to answer your question at the moment are Selenologists (lunar geologists) with experience in exploration methods. Sadly I don't currently know of any myself.

Very interesting thread. It will be exciting to see how this line of science and engineering expertise develops over time.

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

emudude, I think with just 2 payloads into space, I would have to assemble the vehicle there in orbit using salvage, then go to the moon. Unless I can go straight to the moon? I think that wouldn't be a feasible plan. I think it would have to be done in steps.. (Besides the 5 4x8x3/4 sheets a day was only a basis for what quantity of material the small foundry would have to be able to hold. You would make all kinds of things to get anything accomplished.)

1)Get 2 payloads into space(All things needed to get you started)

2)Start a salvage business.

3)Use salvage to build your vehicle.

4)Go to the moon.

5)Mine the moon

6)Use moon materials to set up your trip to the asteroid belt/ outer planets.

An example would be, I would need a Bulldozer on the moon to help mine the moon effectively. On the origianal 2 payloads to space maybe I would bring only part of the dozer and maybe make the bulldozers blade on the moon(Or in space before leaving earth orbit.) to save the cost of actually putting the heavy blade into orbit.

using that as an example thats the direction I am thinking.

Socratica, Yeah, I believe this would be a good thing for a few folks to do who really want to get into space. I would love to do this!

 

[emudude]

rhapsodyinspace2:

The main problem we face is how to get the right equipment to the moon for the right price. Current launch costs will require more effort on our part than future launch costs will. However, if we regard mining the moon as an immediate priority, it will require a rather hefty multi-billion dollar investment. If we are able to get the right amout of expertise behind this, we could make *significant* financial returns on this investment. The bottom line is that we need to find the valuable minerals, develop a smart system for their extraction, invest in a highly rudimentary digging apparatus which can drill into the moon and carve out a gigantic living space which is topped off by an airlock. As well, we can't forget about the mass driver which will launch payloads of mass into orbit, which can be used for such purposes as providing raw materials for space-based power systems on earth.

Socratica

I'm an undergrad computer engineer myself, geologists irrespective of what celestial body they study are extremely valuable for a lunar endeavour...I have never heard of Selenologists, but the principles of exploration should be somewhat similar regardless of where you are studying the crust of a massive celestial object. Hopefully we will be working together to develop an industry which fuels mankind's need for resources for universal exploration in the future

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

emudude your right, so we have to think, we have $700 million so how do we spend it, and on what do we spend it on! You need to remember the $700 million in 2 payloads has to get us to the asteroid belt/outer planets, so we have to make in orbit/moon/asteroid belt everything else we need.Even if we need to make half or all of anything we need after we leave earth orbit!(use the bulldozer from an earlier post as an example!)

So what do we bring in those 2 payloads that will get us to that point?

The problem is everyone is skipping just getting to orbit and skipping right to the damn moon. lets do this a step at a time! (lol)

Errrrr...I am talking about doing this for a living, what we make off of it then turning around and putting it back into the venture. Getting as many people in orbit as possible the first couple of years as possible. Then, and only then, trying to make a profit! Now remember it will be hard to return anything we do back to earth. We will have to bring folks up to orbit to make a decent space economy. to quote the movie....Field of dreams..."If you build it....they will come!" we build, build, build, for 10 years and fill it with folks! Kind of do the working vacation dude ranch on rich people, have them help get us to where we need to be! then we have folks to market to! Then we really begin the space age!

If I go to space I am staying there! I am not coming back!

I like your posts emudude but your still thinking corporations and not space enthusiasts'...(lol)

Anyway, so what do we bring in those 2 loads?

 

[emudude]

I am also thinking of what to bring into orbit. Also, I am thinking of how to get the most "bang for our buck" in terms of establishing orbital facilities (around earth). I read your posts, and realized that getting the raw materials into orbit from earth is kinda expensive...which is why I propose sending a few loads off to the moon, where you can manufacture the heavy (expensive to lift into earth orbit from earth) stuff - such as the shells of spacecraft - and get much more into orbit from the moon. Almost nothing which is mined from the moon will be returned to the earth in this endeavour. What one payload could bring up from earth to earth orbit, much, MUCH more can be lifted from the moon for the same price. Sound appealing? :mrgreen:

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

emudude , Exactly, I believe your coming around my friend! First you sounded more corporate! Remember.. A few loads is 2 payloads into orbit!…So what do we bring? I think we can make our vehicle/station within a year….Maybe sooner. And head to the moon …For the next phase! We can make the first ring of a rotating station in 9.5 weeks with materials…..Then head to the moon to continue our quest! See below!

Space station radius is 180 ft. 360 ft. diameter 360x3.1416=1130.976 ft.

1130.976 ft./8 ft. = 141.372 4x8 sheets(this is for all intensive purposes the outer most part of the structure…..the first floor.)



Scheduling of construction. 5.68 weeks+12.66 weeks struts.=18.34 weeks to complete first circular sidewalk floor.

First floor Materials
142 4x8x¾ sheets(18.34 weeks/142 sheets=7.74 sheets a week)
76 struts 30 ft. long (18.34 weeks/76 struts=4.14 struts a week)

Make 8 struts a week will take 9.5 weeks(76/8=9.5 weeks)
Make 15 sheets a week will take 9.4 weeks(142/15=9.4 weeks)

Sheets have an extra day so there would be 5 extra sheets surplus 147 total. 3 x5=15 extra sheets.

First floor done in 9.5 weeks. 9.5 weeks x 3 floors =28.5 weeks for a floor 12 ft. wide.

First wall Materials
284 4x8x¾ sheets

Make 30 sheets a week(5x6 days not 5=30 sheets week)
Make 2 ceiling struts a week(build up for next phase)

284/30 sheets a week=9.46 weeks
9.46x2=19 extra struts x 2 walls = 38 extra struts.

Wall finished in 9.5 weeks. Total 2 walls 20 weeks

Ceiling Materials
121 4x8x¾ sheets(136 sheets-15 sheet extras=121 sheets needed)
35 Struts(73 ceiling struts-38 struts extras=35 struts needed)

Make 8 struts a week(35/8=4.375 weeks)
Make 30 sheets a week(121/30=4.03 weeks.)

Ceiling finished in 4.375 weeks x2= 8.75 weeks finish 2 sections of ceiling. Leaving the first floor open to space for a rail system for utilities.

(would have 5 extra sheet making days= 15 extra sheets left over)

Total 8 ft. wide x 8 ft. high tube x 1131 ft. long would take 1 year 5.25 weeks. Total volume of tube is 72,384 cubic ft. of space. With a 4 ft. porch for rail system.

Adding another floor and ceiling to make the tube 12x8x1131 would take another 9.5 weeks for the floor and 9.125 weeks for the ceiling.
Adding 19 weeks to the construction. Total time 1 year 24.5 weeks.(1 ½ years)

Tube volume would be 12x8x1131=108,576 cubic ft. of space station.

Ceiling materials needed
136 sheets(136 sheets/ 15 sheets=9.06 weeks
73 struts(73/8 struts a week=9.125 weeks

Get this done!…then head to the moon!

I am soooooooo ready! (lol)

 

[vattas]

It's nice to see so much optimism... And it sounds so easy...
But, guys, why do you think NASA astronauts are training for months in the pool for, e.g. just one replacement of aging battery?

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

vattas , I believe there would be a lot of training to do this properly. I am sorry If we gave you the impression otherwise. I just think we need to get rid of the red tape mentality and go up into space, roll up our sleeves and build, build, build!

(Someone whispering in my ear)
What?.....nooooo...I did not just tell them to roll their spacesuit sleeves up while working in space!....not me...uhhhh...yes I know your arms would turn into freeze dried jerky...NOOOO..I don't wanna watch the training video again....rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....Great....Thanks vattas ......

Some days you just can't win.....(lol) :lol: :shock:

 

[webtaz99]

If you plan on not coming back, you better get real good at closed cycle life support.

By the way, nobody has done that.

Ever.



Just sayin'.

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

webtaz99 I will not have a closed cycle life support system.(Would love one though!) I would still depend on supplies from earth. I just want to live in space, I am not saying I would turn my back on it!

 

[MeteorWayne]

Oh, well then there goes your $700 million baseline out the window...

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

Oh, well then there goes your $700 million baseline out the window...

MeteorWayne, Not really. If I just got the first 3 out the 6 steps done I would still be able to make money on the venture even if it was just to provide essentials for living.

1)Get 2 payloads into space(All things needed to get you started)

2)Start a salvage business.

3)Use salvage to build your vehicle.

If I got the station to rotate I would have a semblence of gravity.(I could make $ just having the I.S.S. crew coming over as a wellness/fitness program. Even tourism $.)

The salvage business would produce $

At the very least enough to provide basic neccessities to continue living in space!

Right?

 

[MeteorWayne]

OK, a few questions.
What are you going to slavage?

What device are you going to use to salvage said objects?

Do you have a list of possible objects?

What orbits are they in?

Where does that money come from?

Do you have any idea at all what the costs of salvage missions would be?

MW

 

[rhapsodyinspace2]

OK, a few questions.
What are you going to slavage?

What device are you going to use to salvage said objects?

Do you have a list of possible objects?

What orbits are they in?

Where does that money come from?

Do you have any idea at all what the costs of salvage missions would be?

MW

I am going to salvage spent rocket stages, satellites from orbit.

As for devices to use to salvage. a robotic tug, then later a manned tug/robotic tug.

There are several sights for space debris, And space command could give you proper cordinates, orbits of space debris they would like to see removed from orbit.

I would imagine the debris would be in all differant orbits.

As to where does the money come from.( I assume you mean who would be giving me money for these services?) I believe if you went directly to the insurance companies that insure the flights for the companys launching satellites and made your deal with them they would put $ and tell or squeeze their clients into providing $ to help clear the way of specific mission minded debris that might be in the way of their specific launch!

As to the costs, I guess that is why I am here to discuss this in complete detail. If you use the same fuel as the stages you are salvaging, you should have plenty of fuel(there is fuel left over in each tank) Otherwise it would be computer calculations trying to scoop up debris in an efficient manner as possible!

And if they are short sighted enough to abandon the I.S.S.(I personally cannot see them doing that!) then salvage that to!

So on those 2 payloads what do I bring?

Where can I find an inventory of what was taken to the moon on the apollo missions?

Thanks, MeteorWayne those are good questions and cannot wait to work out more on this forum!

 

[MeteorWayne]

Ok, well just being the pragmatist here.

I think you vastly underestimate the propellant required to go tooling about in earth orbit collecting rocket bodies and defunct satellites. And I'd suggest that many of the owners of those objects would be less than happy about you grabbing their craft with proprietary technology.

I'd strongly suggest you look into the physics required for your salvage operations...I believe it's far more than you think.

If you want to be realistic, you need to examine this issue. Changing planes and altitude requires a LOT of propellant...more than can be launched in the mission you are proposing, IMHO.

Wayne