For the structure of your colony, why not use robot-built barrel-vaults? This is a simple structure that can be built relatively easily in-situ. I've done some sketches of double-vaulted craters with three-tiered aquaducts looping around the crater inside. People would live among the arches, crops and fish would be grown in the upper tiers. The whole setup could be prepared from Earth or a small base nearby. The blocks can be assumed to be sintered from local materials, using solar forges. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>
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First off, I would like to thank Arobie for starting this thread. <br /><br />I was watching a show about Star Trek fans and my mind wandered as it often does when I think about space. And I had the exact same thought you did. Start a community of people who are excited about the idea of living in space and willing to put in the time to make it happen with todays technology. <br /><br />I'm a software engineer with a strong passion for colonizing space. I belive the only way for the human race to survive through the ages is to get off this rock. I have very little faith in our government doing what needs to be done in a timeline which will allow me to see the average person have that oppertunity. <br /><br />That being said, I would like to offer my time, skills, and resources to this project. I am an accomplished project leader, software designer, and space nut 
<br /><br />To get this project really going I was thinking we need to put together a site that would act as our portal to research, communication, and recruiting of other like minded people. There should be forums which break the topics down into individual categories which will need to be addressed. Categories like: Life support, Shielding, Housing, Resources (Food, water, etc), Energy development/storage, Communications, Recreation, Medical, etc. The more we can break down each area and work out the details the more likely we are to find a solution to each specific problem. <br /><br />We should draw up an official plan of steps that need to be taken, and one of the first items I think we should do is an extensive study on what the ISS currently does. We should learn everything we can about the pros and cons of the systems they use. The limitations of an orbiting station vs a stationary system on the moon. <br /><br />I strongly believe that if we are able to get enough interest going we can start drawing private investors. SpaceShipOne won the X-Prize from a single person investing 20mil into the project. If we c
<br /><br />To get this project really going I was thinking we need to put together a site that would act as our portal to research, communication, and recruiting of other like minded people. There should be forums which break the topics down into individual categories which will need to be addressed. Categories like: Life support, Shielding, Housing, Resources (Food, water, etc), Energy development/storage, Communications, Recreation, Medical, etc. The more we can break down each area and work out the details the more likely we are to find a solution to each specific problem. <br /><br />We should draw up an official plan of steps that need to be taken, and one of the first items I think we should do is an extensive study on what the ISS currently does. We should learn everything we can about the pros and cons of the systems they use. The limitations of an orbiting station vs a stationary system on the moon. <br /><br />I strongly believe that if we are able to get enough interest going we can start drawing private investors. SpaceShipOne won the X-Prize from a single person investing 20mil into the project. If we cYou must like being bored. What is there to do on the moon besides looking at the stars. Not to mention those unpredictable solar flares. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="2" color="#14ea50"><strong><font size="1">We are born. We live. We experiment. We rot. We die. and the whole process starts all over again! Imagine That!</font><br /><br /><br /><img id="6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264" style="width:176px;height:247px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/4/6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" width="276" height="440" /><br /></strong></font> </div>
<b> Warning </b> even longer rambling monologue. You might want to use the bold headers to pick out the bits most intresting to you. If you don't want to read the whole thing. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br /><b> Mining</b><br /><br /> kadetken made an excellent post here. <br />Asides from materials necessary to keep the colony going this depends on what we want to sell. As well as our locations the highlands is rich in Aluminium and Calcium. Where the lowlands are rich in Iron ref 1 and what of water ice at the poles?<br /><br />Since the surface is powdery we can simply scoop up materials or use a flail or slusher ref 2<br />These could probably be tele-operated from the habitat or in an early phase earth or maybe autonoums.<br /><br /><b>Refining </b><br /><br />Electrolysis of minerals would be a good candidate since it doesn't require the use of reactants. Once feedstock has been melted in kadeketen's solar furnace. A pair of electrodes and voltage can separate different minerals. Or we can use vacuum distillation. ref 3 where we use solar mirrors to heat to different melting or boiling points and "drain" of into different storage areas. Earth experiments with lunar soil have shown that at 1200 degrees C iron oxide completely volatises, from which electrolysis generates Iron and Oxygen. at 1500 degrees C SiO2 is volatised as did magnesium Oxide leaving behind calcium aluminate. The heating process was about five minutes! Again electrolysis on the main output can give us aluminium calcium and Oxygen, with Silicon as a "waste"product. ref 4 That's the area I want to be running on the colony <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> There is also the possibility of chemical processing as mentioned
<font color="yellow"><b>I wonder what a lunar swimming pool would be like? Or a rollercoaster? </b></font><br /><br />It would be too cold to swim and the good thing is that you can't drown.... at least that is not always true. Maybe if there are Lunar Pools, The moon will need another moon (satellite) to keep control of the tides.<br />Good for thought though. <br /><br />Once a solar flare pass through the moon, the water would eventually evaporate. So I guess that wouldn't last long would it?<br /><br /><b> Fear not... I am here to save you!!!</b> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="2" color="#14ea50"><strong><font size="1">We are born. We live. We experiment. We rot. We die. and the whole process starts all over again! Imagine That!</font><br /><br /><br /><img id="6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264" style="width:176px;height:247px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/4/6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" width="276" height="440" /><br /></strong></font> </div>
<font color="yellow">"It would be too cold to swim ..."</font><br /><br />?? If we were to ignore all other problems and assume (I can't imagine why) that the pool were exposed to the surface temperatures of the moon, and it were daylight, the temperature of the pool would get as high as 120 degrees C (a bit on the warmish side for swimming) and if it were night-time, would drop down as low as -230 degrees C (hope you weren't in the pool when it done froze up solid). Presumably then, any such pool would be in a habitat. A habitat is designed for people to inhabit, which would indicate that it's climate controlled to allow for comfort. This would tend to mean it's in the range of temperatures that would allow for swimming. <br /><br />So what are you talking about?<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"...the good thing is that you can't drown.... at least that is not always true. "</font><br /><br />What??? Are you arguing that you <b>can</b> drown or that you <b>can't</b>, and if you're arguing that you can't -- why not?<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"Maybe if there are Lunar Pools, The moon will need another moon (satellite) to keep control of the tides. "</font><br /><br />For one -- why should a swimming pool require a tide?<br /><br />For two -- if there was sucha thing as a body of water on the moon large enough to experience a tidal effect -- what exactly makes you think that the moon would require a new satellite to provide one? Seen from the moon's perspective, it <b>has</b> a satellite. It's that blue orb up there that the inhabitants have coined 'Earth'. Earth would make for a <b>monster</b> of a tide... if the moon had oceans of water... which it doesn't... so the point is moot... assuming there was any point in the first place.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"Once a solar flare pass through the moon, the water would eventually evaporate. "</font><br /><br />No need for a flare. If there were any liquid water on the surf
I thought this would be interesting. <br /><br />http://marshome.org/<br /><br />http://www.marshome.org/files2/ICES2005-MarsHome.pdf <br /><br />Very similar stuff to what we are talking about here.
Yes, i mean in a habitat, say under the surface, somewhere safe and snug. Temperature controlled and all of that. Just like a small swimming pool on earth except its moon gravity.<br /><br />Imagine a slow motion dive? I wonder how the water would move around. Maybe swimming could be a good fitness and leisure activity for moon people.
Hey Craig,<br /><br />Don't worry about long rambling posts! I tend to do that too. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I'm glad that you brought up the initial occupancy number. One hundred people is what I have been thinking also. For now, that's what we can use for a baseline number, but that number is subject to change as we design our colony. Discussion??<br /><br />The very first people to arrive at the colony should be a skeleton crew to prep the colony for large use and make sure that there are no errors anywhere. If there is something wrong, they fix it. If it is colony critical and can not be fixed by the pre-colony skel crew, then the colony is not inhabited until the problem is fixed.<br /><br />I've read the PERMANENT sections on Lunar Resources and Industrial Processes, but I have not read Celss page in the Space Colonies section yet. I will have to. What you say about Algae is very interesting.<br /><br /><b>Food</b><br /><br />A cool formula:<br /><br />Caloric requirements are determined by the National Research Council formula for basal energy expenditure (BEE):<br /><br />For women, BEE = 655 + (9.6 x W) + (1.7 x H) - (4.7 x A)<br /><br />For men, BEE = 66 + (13.7 x W) + (5 x H) - (6.8 x A)<br /><br />Where W = weight in kilograms, H = height in centimeters, and A = age in years.<br /><br />Based on the ISS, that's about 7lbs/person/day. Umm 7lb...that's 3.175 kg<br /><br />Excellent water data. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />The rest of your post dealing with energy and shielding, I'll get to but not in this post. Our energy source as you say is of course dependent on our Colony's location. Radiation shielding, I have some ideas, but I know very little on the subject of radiation. I need to do some research first.
<font color="yellow">"I wonder how the water would move around."</font><br /><br />A few thoughts:<br /><br />- Water would splash higher and stay airborne longer.<br /><br />- After diving underwater, barring 'swimming' up, you would 'float' to the surface much slower.<br /><br />- Water would act 'stickier' when draining off of you as you exit the pool. On Earth, as you leave the water -- it rolls down off of your face/body leaving only isolated drops that adhere to your skin. On the moon, the adhesion of the water would be the same, but its weight would be considerably reduced -- so more would cling to your skin and what water <b>does</b> roll off would do so slower. This would seem to have the potential to cause real problems swimming in 1/6th G as water might well 'stick' to your face for long enough to cause problems breathing. With most swimming styles (crawl, breast stroke, butterfly) -- we expect the water to quickly fall off our face as soon as it rises above the surface of the pool. That might well not happen fast enough on the moon.
<b><font color="yellow">What??? Are you arguing that you can drown or that you can't, and if you're arguing that you can't -- why not? </font>/b><br /><br />That is why I said that in the least that is not always true. Just like you can drown in pool or oceans on Earth(since gravity is pulling downward), it is possible that you can drown on the moon as well although there is little or no gravity at all. Since the moon has little or no gravity, everything seems to float. Think of it as a floating ocean. <br /><br />And who wants to swim in a 120 degree pool of water. In order to have a Lunar Pool, you must at least have some kind of water source such as an <b>OCEAN</b> to get the water for the lunar pool. So that is why If the moon did have such things, it would need something to orbit to keep control of the tides just like the moon itself orbits Earth to control the tides.<br /><br /> <br /><font color="black"><b>True Knowledge exist in knowing That You Know</b></font>b> Nothing!!!!!</b> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="2" color="#14ea50"><strong><font size="1">We are born. We live. We experiment. We rot. We die. and the whole process starts all over again! Imagine That!</font><br /><br /><br /><img id="6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264" style="width:176px;height:247px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/4/6e5c6b4c-0657-47dd-9476-1fbb47938264.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" width="276" height="440" /><br /></strong></font> </div>
<font color="yellow">"Since the moon has little or no gravity, everything seems to float. "</font><br /><br />The Moon has definitely <i>a little</i> gravity, 0.1654 gee to be exact. But this doesn't mean everything would float in the moon pool like styrofoam. Small gravity means also small hydrostatic pressure in the water, and buoyancy force is related to it, so AFAIK every sinks about as much as here on Earth.<br /><br />I fail to understand why you'd need an moon ocean to make a swimming pool, especially when there are not any liquid oceans there. Those Mares are just ancient lava fields <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> 8/9 of water's weight is oxygen and that Moon has plenty. There is hydrogen in the regolith but extracting it will be a tedious business. Some water ice maybe lurking at the dark craters near poles.<br /><br />I fail to understand the tide control issue even less. If the moon would somehow have an ocean it probably would have eternal high-tide on the side facing earth.
<font color="yellow">"Since the moon has little or no gravity, everything seems to float. Think of it as a floating ocean."</font><br /><br />Little or <b>no</b> gravity? Are you living on the same planet as the rest of us? The moon exerts 1/6th G of gravity. Water doesn't float in 1/6th G -- it just falls slower.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"And who wants to swim in a 120 degree pool of water."</font><br /><br />Pointing out that the physical properties of water precludes it from getting hotter than ~100 degrees C (even if said water were at Earth sea-level atmospheric pressure) is probably pointless, but I'll point it out anyway.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"...you must at least have some kind of water source such as an OCEAN to get the water for the lunar pool..."</font><br /><br />Just like you *must* have at least 30 gallons of water if you'd like to fill a thimble up? Gotcha.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">"... it would need something to orbit to keep control of the tides just like the moon itself orbits Earth to control the tides."</font><br /><br />Yeah... um... cause an ocean that didn't have tides would be... um... a tideless ocean. Can't have that. It's just not right. Who ever heard of a tideless ocean? Silly. Physically impossible. The thing these kids come up with these days. Boy in <b>my</b> day you'd never hear anyone speaking about oceans that didn't have a good strong tide. What would the surfers do without a tide I ask you? How could ships sail with the tide? And what about Tide laundry detergent -- what kind of a world would it be without Tide laundry detergent?
kadetken,<br /><br />Excellent post. Thank you for bringing all of that up. Everything you mention is a worthwhile investment, all of it needs to be pursued, although we won't plan on pursuing all of it at first.<br /><br />At the end of you post you said, "No one goal will yield a Moon base, but once a base is there there are a lot of goals to pursue."<br /><br />That is extremely important. Our goal, our purpose for establishing this Lunar Colony <i>is</i> to establish a Lunar Colony. But I did not say, and I will add now, "Because it moves us closer to doing and pursuing all of those worthwhile goals that there are to do and pursue in space." <br /><br />That's why I want to build the colony using insitu resources, because setting up insitu resource utilization off the bat moves us just one step closer to using all of the other resources, one step closer to realizing the full potential of ISRU. <br /><br />That's why I want to set up a LARGE colony, because it moves us one step closer to doing the rest of the stuff that there is to do on the Moon. A small specialized base is, well small and specialized. A large, broad colony has the capability to do some of the other things there are to do on the Moon. <br /><br />That is why I want to give this colony the capability to expand, because being able to expand moves us closer to being able realize all the other possibilities on the Moon. <br /><br />Our goal, our purpose for establishing this Lunar Colony <i>is</i> to establish a Lunar Colony <i>because</i> it moves us closer to doing and pursuing all of those worthwhile goals that there are to do and pursue in space.<br /><br />All of the industrial ISRU that you bring up should be an eventual goal for the Colony. At first, the focus is on oxygen extraction, brick making , and glass making. After the colony is extablished, brick making and glass making might slow down while the focus of the colony is on survival and getting used to the lunar living. People move in, gardens are pla
<font color="yellow">"What is there to do on the moon besides looking at the stars. "</font><br /><br />Let's put it this way. Once most of the quirks of permanent, selfsufficient moon-settlement have been solved and living there gets easier and nicer with greenhouses, moon pools etc then what is there that you <i>couldn't</i> do on the moon?
stevehw33<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><br />Solar (wi. heavy duty, large batteries) would be a very good backup for nuclear plants which are likely to supply most of the power for transportation & industrial purposes. Solar is good for residential and service industry uses.<br /><br />The problem is daylight. Soon as the sun is off, when the moon rotates around its axis, the power is off. Chemical & nuclear energy sources have no time limits, but on the moon, the 29 day/night cycle is going to be very important. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Nuclear is an option, but if we can can get the power that we need from solar, solar is definitely preferred. If we build our colony at either of the poles, then we have never ending sunlight. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />
JO5H,<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><br />For the structure of your colony, why not use robot-built barrel-vaults? This is a simple structure that can be built relatively easily in-situ. I've done some sketches of double-vaulted craters with three-tiered aquaducts looping around the crater inside. People would live among the arches, crops and fish would be grown in the upper tiers. The whole setup could be prepared from Earth or a small base nearby. The blocks can be assumed to be sintered from local materials, using solar forges.<br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I'm not sure if I've ever heard this idea. Could you explain it for me some more?
Metalic calcium is 1.55 times as heavy as water and is moderately hard, so it could be used as a structual metal or alloy in the vacuum of the moon. It is however a very reactive metal, so contact with some materials such as water, oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide would need to be avoided.<br /> It is not a better electrical conductor than copper and aluminum, by volume, but is about the same by weight. A calcium-nitrogen rocket might be practical, but the moon has little nitrogen. Calcium and water might make good rocket fuel. Calcium-oxygen would work, but there are better metals such as lithium. Neil
Like the North and South poles of Earth, The moon poles have 6 months of continous sunlight followed by about 6 months of continous night. Neil
Hi Arobie. <br /><br />Phew! That's a relief. I was beginning to worry I was boring everyone <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Glad you agree on baseline number. I'm open to discussion on that as long as it's revised up not down. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> At that sort of level it's much more permanent. Also at that level we need to start thinking about Drs and Nurses, Police/Security and so on. Of course it doesn't have to be algae but that's probably the most efficient. With what ebcarum says about structure height makes things much easier for taller solar towers and ag areas. <br /><br />That’ s a very useful formulae there.<br /><br /> As for location I prefer the poles both for power and possibly hydrogen. <br />On the subject of radiation I recommend (if you haven't done so already) you read the Avalon chapter of Marshall T. Savage's Colonizing the galaxy in eight easy steps (The entire book is an excellent read but Avalon concentrates specifically on the moon) (I managed to borrow a copy from the local library <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and also Gerald K O’Neil’s The high frontier. (Although it's about space settlements it gives you some basic info on radiation. I’d recommend PERMENANT as well but you already seem to know about that. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Does anyone know more specifics about hydrogen deposits? i.e. <br /><br />Stored as Water Ice or not? , Predicted amount?<br />
Because of the lower atmospheric pressure it would take more energy to boil water--and we would need to take that into consideration when putting together the energy requirements for the "water-recycling system". <br /><br />Also, what if we found a reasonably sized crater and built at least the main part of the colony in that? That would cut town on resources needed to build the external structure of the base (just the roof--the crater provides the walls)
<font color="yellow">"Because of the lower atmospheric pressure it would take more energy to boil water"</font><br /><br />No. You have that 100% backwards. Water boils at lower temperatures as atmospheric pressure drops. This is why there is sucha thing as 'vacuum distillation'. In a vacuum, liquid water boils... period.
I agree with mrmorus: Vacuum distillation is more energy efficient, but it does not separate the volitiles from the water as fully, so the distilled water may smell bad and it may not get hot enough to kill some kinds of micro-organisms.<br /> The crater and roof should have an air bladder to reduce air leakage. Neil
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