Apollo/Saturn V SIC/SIIC stage separation

[gofortli]

I was reading over the Apollo 8 Flight Journal details and was curious about something. Do any films exist of a view of the Saturn V first/second stage separation looking up toward the second stage?<br />We've all seen the view from the second stage down toward the first stage and earth, but the flight journal mentioned that a camera was mounted on the SIC looking up toward the vehicle.<br />I'm a major space geek and really enjoy getting into the technical details of things like staging, etc.<br />Any information would be appreciated. You all have a great board going and I really enjoy reading the stuff here.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />-dk-

 

[nolirogari]

As far as I know, the only cameras between those stages were on Apollo 4. Apollo 6's cameras were either deleted or were not recovered. After that I believe they were deleted for weight. These cams were nothing like we have today- they were big, heavy and shot film. They were ejected and used a sort of airbag to slow them and allow flotation after hitting the sea. Attached (I hope) is an image of the cameras used on the Saturn I- those used on Apollo 4 were probably similar.

 

[nolirogari]

I just looked it up and there were camera's on the Apollo 6 S-II. One was lost due to antenna damage and the second was recovered damaged with the film still useable. Of course now this got me going and tomorrow I'll have to look up Apollo 8. There was a camera on the S-IC, but it monitored the LOX tank. Apollo 8 did also have such a camera.

 

[nolirogari]

FYI that S-IVB footage is from a Saturn IB flight (Likely AS-201). It was not possable to get film footage of the sep. of the S-IVB on a Saturn V. The canisters would have burned up on reentry- they were so high and fast by then.

 

[nolirogari]

Yep- the dead giveaway are the 3 ullage motors firing. The S-IVBs on the Saturn V only had 2 ullage motors.

 

[drwayne]

Wow, I either didn't know that, or forgot that.<br /><br />This is why I love it here.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[mikejz]

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4206/ch11.htm

 

[drwayne]

"Best of all I found that the name "ullage" was an old brewmeister's term. It is the air space above the beer in a vat!"<br /><br />You can tell me that sort of stuff until I am brew in the face.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

Lots of empties. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[nolirogari]

I noticed that on the SDLVs, they are trying to replace the word "ullage" with "settling motors." Perhaps because these days, no one is sure how you pronounce the word ullage.

 

[nolirogari]

Here is the answer to the original question- and I WAS WRONG! There were cameras on AS-203, 4 of them and two looked forward toward the departing S-II to monitor seperation and J-2 engine start! Other camera's monitored the LOX tank. Only one camera was recovered, however, and it was one of the LOX monitors. That film can be seen on the Spacecraft Films Apollo 8 DVD set. This is from the AS-503 Saturn V Vehicle Flight Evaluation Report, page 19-22.<br /><br />Now I'll have to look at them all and see what's up with cameras.<br /><br />Another cool fact is that live TV cameras were located down among the F-1 engines to monitor the heat shield during flight. I never knew that one.

 

[nolirogari]

That's what I figured... those of us who can say ullage, will call it that.<br /><br />Here's the final low down on Saturn V cameras. Apollo 8 was the last flight equipped with cameras on the Saturn V. Apollo 9 had none as they thought that the ground based film cameras were enough- of course the weather skunked those cameras on the next two flights! Apollo 8 was also apparently the only flight to have cameras mounted on the S-IC looking forward, and those were both lost- the report even says that they may never have been ejected. Ejection, by the way was done with Helium under pressure. <br /><br />Thus we see how a simple question asked here, can actually lead to those of us who think we know, discovering that we're incorrect, and learning what is correct! How 'bout that!

 

[drwayne]

So maybe I am not as forgetful as I thought I was....<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>That's what I figured... those of us who can say ullage, will call it that. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I vote for "ullage". It's a much cooler word. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[nacnud]

I heard it first in the beer industry. You normaly get a few pints ullage left at the end of a barrel and as the barrel is returned to the brewer you don't have to pay for it.<br /><br />The ullage tended to be a couple of pints out when I was working celler <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[gofortli]

Thanks all for the welcome and research on this. I agree "ullage" is a cool term and I always wondered what the astros were talking about when they used the term before an engine burn.<br /><br />It would be really neat to see the S-II engines fire up after sep. Also to see the skirt sep when viewed up toward the vehicle. I have the Spacecraft Films Apollo 8 CDs - what a great job they did! There is one tracking view of the launch (I think done on film) that has very high resolution. I can slow motion/still the view and watch the entire first/second stage separation sequence. It also shows those little J engines ignite into a nice dice-5 figure. Really neat.<br /><br />On a different note: I recall one of the best launches (Apollo again) I saw on TV was Apollo 14. As you may remember, the launch was delayed a bit until later in the day on 1/31/71. The late afternoon lighting and clear skies allowed us to clearly see the interstage separate and fall away and the LET fly away!! That is really neat. After 30+ years I still remember that and was impressed as a young lad. <br /><br />Guess I'm easily amused :^)<br /><br />Anybody else recall that or another stellar launch??<br /><br />-dk-

 

[nolirogari]

Apollo 14 was GREAT and 17 was simply glory!

 

[CalliArcale]

You older folks make me very jealous. The one thing that I really regret about being younger than the Apollo mission is that I've never had the slightest chance to see a Saturn V launch. (I was born during ASTP, so I didn't even have a chance to see a Saturn 1B.)<br /><br />Of course, this doesn't excuse my failure to see a Shuttle launch yet.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[nolirogari]

Yeah- you gotta go to a shuttle launch! You can try and get a vehicle pass and watch from the causway. There will never be another Saturn V (although the SDLV cargo vehicle will be close), but the shuttle is a total thrill!

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Bring hubby and the baby for a launch and I will get you into the post launch party !<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Seriously? COOL!!!!!<br /><br />Oh man....it's too bad I'm not sure how things will be going in May, what with moving plans and all.... I may have to aim for the next flight after that. (I refuse to hope for a delay on STS-121. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) You've really got me excited now! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

Well, shoot, we should (fingers crossed) be into our new house by then - I would invite you to come up here, but somehow I don't think I could get that level of exctiement...<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

When I was in graduate school, I remember a couple that refused to have a baby shower until after the baby was born - I understand that way of thinking - wait until the outcome is clear...<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

Understand.<br /><br />I understand when you talk about how hard you guys work - the hours, the stress, the no-days-off for weeks or months.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>