Astrospies

[steve82]

Excellent NOVA episode tonight on the MOL program with lots of footage of the training, the thinly veiled spy mission, and the Soviet Almaz program:<br /><br />http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/astrospies/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_3_novabrastrospies_2008-02-12

 

[qso1]

I was always fascinated by the MOL program and sometimes wondered if any astronauts ever did actually fly aboard MOL but as I later learned. MOL was canned in 1969 and only one flying example was ever launched and it was said to only be a mockup. Being that its hard to hide launches, and most are publically known thru sources like Astronautix.com I came to doubt we'd ever sent anyone up via the MOL program.<br /><br />The reason MOL was canned made sense too, and that was because the coming KH-9 Big bird series and KH-11 Kennan spysats (To name just Two) were able to perform the primary recon tasks without crews.<br /><br />Wish I could have seen the Nova specials on spysats. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[rybanis]

Very good episode! In a way, it was kind of heartbreaking, knowing that those men who trained for years never got to go into orbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

What is MOL.

 

[lampblack]

Manned Orbital Laboratory. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

Good program! With some great video of ground training and MOL interiors.<br /><br />Very interesting was the fact the whole MOL project was a U-2 style black program from the very beginning. MOL makes a lot more sense now in retrospect.<br /><br />Also interesting was that the primary technical criticism of MOL, that manned operation would spoil the effectiveness of a spy camera, seemed disproved by the operation of the Russian Almaz spy station during the '70s. But best of all was the fact the Almaz actually test fired it's 23mm autocannon in space successfully! Now that's some gunsandrockets!

 

[CalliArcale]

I wouldn't say it was disproved by Almaz. The Russian military cancelled the Almaz program because insufficient benefit was demonstrated to justify the expense. They reached the same conclusions as the Americans -- unmanned satellites could do the same job for less money and could actually do it better (because they could work 24/7 and didn't have to include bulky, fragile humans in their payload return cannisters). <br /><br />So really, Almaz proved the reason for canceling MOL, alas. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[docm]

Yes, that was a great NOVA episode. Glad I had set the DVD recorder. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

Rybanis:<br />Very good episode! In a way, it was kind of heartbreaking, knowing that those men who trained for years never got to go into orbit.<br /><br />Me:<br />Some did get to go into space, aboard the shuttle. They include Robert Crippen, Karol Bobko, Gordon Fullerton, Henry Hartsfield, Richard Truly, Robert Overmyer, Donald Peterson to name a few. Didn't this program mention any of these guys? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[docm]

Yes, it did as well as mentioning that many flew on the shuttle. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

I always thought Almaz flights started after MOLs cancellation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

I guess the most patient ones held out. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[rybanis]

Oh yeah. Well, in my defense- I was drinking beer when I wrote that post. By the time the shuttle came about, were these guys already out of the military, or were they on the air force missions in the 80's? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

Drinking beer, ah good defense!<br /><br />I'm not sure what they did between MOL cancellation and their first shuttle flights but ones like Crippen would have probably gotten into the shuttle program when that program began training astronauts which was around 1978 IIRC. I recall Bruce Mcandless may have been a MOL astronaut as well and he eventually became the first shuttle astronaut to go on an untethered spacewalk. MOL was canned in 1969 and Bruces famous walk was in 1984 so he held out, along with the others for quite some time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

<I wouldn't say it was disproved by Almaz. The Russian military cancelled the Almaz program because insufficient benefit was demonstrated to justify the expense.><br /><br />Cost vs benefit is a different objection then the one I brought up.<br /><br /><They reached the same conclusions as the Americans -- unmanned satellites could do the same job for less money and could actually do it better (because they could work 24/7 and didn't have to include bulky, fragile humans in their payload return cannisters). /><br /><br />KH-11 didn't fly until what? 1977? If MOL had not been canceled it would have beaten Big Bird to operational status by more than half a decade! Who can say what the shape of the manned space program might have been if MOL had continued through 1977 and beyond. Perhaps such a vigorous manned spaceflight effort could have redeemed the STS program instead of the disappointment it became. <br />

 

[qso1]

gunsandrockets:<br />KH-11 didn't fly until what? 1977? If MOL had not been canceled it would have beaten Big Bird to operational status by more than half a decade!<br /><br />Me:<br />Don't forget the KH-9. That was the spysat series known as "Big bird". The KH-11 series were code named Kennan. Big bird went operational in 1971 IIRC which would have been close enough to have been an influence on the 1969 MOL cancellation.<br /><br />I agree that if the DOD proceeded with MOL, it might have had a more positive effect on the shuttle and human spaceflight in general. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

I wasn't sure if McCandless was a MOLnaut or not, thanks for clearing that up. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[qso1]

Of all the stuff I learned over the years about human spaceflight. The astronauts were what I knew the least about. I knew a lot about the Mercury thru Apollo crews but lost track once enough shuttles flew to become impractical to keep track of.<br /><br />Then when I wrote my GN, it needed a lot of astronaut data so I had to reseacrh again. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

<Don't forget the KH-9. That was the spysat series known as "Big bird". The KH-11 series were code named Kennan. Big bird went operational in 1971 IIRC which would have been close enough to have been an influence on the 1969 MOL cancellation.><br /><br />According to the NOVA episode, KH-11 was the first to have a camera with a resolution comparable to the MOL camera.

 

[qso1]

And thats probably true. But the MOL cancellation was carried out because even with the KH-9, Pentagon planners knew that they could use spysats rather than manned space stations for recon work. MOL, IIRC was actually in the planning sequence as the KH10 Dorian series spysat which implies the KH9 was being developed first and probably had a less capable imaging system. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow"> But the MOL cancellation was carried out because even with the KH-9, Pentagon planners knew that they could use spysats rather than manned space stations for recon work.</font>/i><br /><br />While watching the show I kept thinking that it represented the "manned versus unmanned" debate in a nutshell.</i>

 

[qso1]

I can imagine it probably did. These days the emphasis is always on "Can robots do the job better"? I say keep it mixed, utilizing man where best suited and same with robots. The MOL cancellation was probably a wise decision as recon seems best suited for automated spysats for now. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>