Big Bang Busted (Again)

kmarinas86 · Nov 20, 2005

kmarinas86 - Is an electron lighter when it emits light? Er, i.e.: does an electron become lighter because it emitted light? In fact, it does, some of its mass is converted into energy, even though it moves faster when it decreases in energy level. Note that while the electron's momentum is higher when it gives off a photon, it's electric potential energy (comparable to gravitational potential energy) becomes less (i.e. more negative). Since momentum is transferred to the photon, this must result in a mass decrease in the electron. http://users.owt.com/flesher/photonics/photon2.html Since 1905 the famous Einstein 86-89 relationship of mass and energy implies that mass and energy are totally inter- convertible. mC2 = E eq 6 This implies that mass is made of the quanta of energy. Actually they are both aspects of the same thing. The photon in free linear flight in a vacuum is mostly "energy like" and if the photon's constrained in one location in "rotational motion" it is mass like. But there is a minimal residual mass like component to energy and a residual energy like component in mass. Thus photons have their dual nature, mass like and wave like, and all mass observes these same photonic equations, such as found in the Compton57 or de Broglie wavelength of mass, and the Heisenberg131 Uncertainty Principle. Close examination of the Schrodinger wave equation for example will show that it is a purely photonic equation, but it applies to all mass as well. This alone is very strong evidence that mass is photonic. http://www.google.com/search?q=mass+of+an+electron+in+MeV electron mass = 0.510998903 megaelectron volts

Saiph · Nov 20, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />At any time when an electron decays it turns into a spectrum of frequencies. <-- observed -- See http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/7/4/16 Starting from sound and ending in radiation. The strength of these frequencies are determined by the rate of decay. Light is a frequency located between sound and gamma rays and is also created when a particle decays. The Universe is full of all the frequencies that originate from decay. So, the light we see from a light bulb is produced from electrons decaying. The faster the decay the more intense the light becomes. As for the electron beam in TV tubes one would wonder if the electron decays at the moment of being released or after hitting the screen. Either way the electron in a sense is light and is affected by magnetic fields. Potãtoes, potõtoes, the same thing in my book.<hr /></blockquote> Ugh. Electrons do not "decay" to emit light. Electrons transitioning between energy levels in an atom can emit light (and absorb). The transition itself is often called a decay. However, the electron itself does not typically decay to produce light. As such light and electrons are NOT the same thing. They have many different properties, and cannot be directly equated. For instance, electrons are affected by magnetism, light is not. Would you like to try this? Get a laser pointer, point it at a wall about 10 feet away. At five feet (halfway) get a nice magnet, and try to alter the light beam. In a TV the light is emitted by the phosphorescent chemical on the screen. The electrons spouted from the back of the monitor hit the screen, lending energy to the chemicals on the screen (much like my throwing a rock will tranfer energy to whatever it hits). The energy is stored in vibrating the molecules and causing electrons to transition upwards in energy (you absorb e <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

jatslo · Nov 20, 2005

Yeah, even the mighty Jatslo don't ignore the facts, FACTS, I remind you. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

gammarayburst · Nov 20, 2005

Saiph quote : “Electrons do not "decay" to emit light. Electrons transitioning between energy levels in an atom can emit light (and absorb). The transition itself is often called a decay. However, the electron itself does not typically decay to produce light. Electrons do not "decay" to emit light. Electrons transitioning between energy levels in an atom can emit light (and absorb). The transition itself is often called a decay. However, the electron itself does not typically decay to produce light. “ Reply : But if electrons do emit light then is the light emitted part of the electrons decay along with other frequencies? I didn’t mean that light was the only thing that happens when particles decay. Saiph quote : “Also, SOUND is not a frequency of light. It is a wave, but it has different properties than light. For instance, it requires a medium to travel through. It is a compression/longitudinal wave (light is transverse). “ Reply : What I meant was sound is a frequency and light is a frequency no where did I say that sound was a frequency of light. And have you heard the sounds that were recorded in space located at http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/space-audio/ ? Would this suggest that space had a medium for sound to travel through? Would you call it ether “sp”? Kmarinas86 quote : “That however, does not mean that magnets bend light - they don't. They can bend electron's path. Gravity is the guildeline which tells light how to curve. “ Reply : If gravity and magnetic fields are one in the same and gravity causes light to curve then why can’t a magnetic field affect light the same way? You are right Saiph and swampcat. I did not read about how electrons project themselves onto TV screens or the actual cause for the light it emits. I should have looked up some facts before writing that idiotic statement of comparison on light and mag

Swampcat · Nov 20, 2005

"I should have looked up some facts before writing that idiotic statement of comparison on light and magnetic fields. Sorry about that bad comparison." And I give you credit for admitting this. I was beginning to think you were like another poster on this thread that wouldn't know a fact if it slapped him up side the head. You at least appear capable of learning. Enjoy. <img src="/images/icons/cool.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

drwayne · Nov 20, 2005

One other form of radiation associated with charged particles, such as electrons that undergo an acceleration that you might find interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung When I was taking German for the language requirement for my Ph.D. - before the test I had to ask the teacher whether she wanted me to translate the German into "breaking radiation" or not. She was cool, and said do what made sense to me. This may sound like a not, but I knew someone who failed his Spanish exam because he translated to the English the term "liquid crystal", and the instructor said it should be translated "cyrstalline liquid" - and since it was a paper on LCD's - there were a lot of those to mark off... Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything." Admiral Jackie Fisher </div>

jatslo · Nov 20, 2005

Anytime your ready.

newtonian · Nov 20, 2005

gammarayburst - "If" is a big word! You posted: "If gravity and magnetic fields are one in the same and gravity causes light to curve then why can’t a magnetic field affect light the same way?" However, gravity and magnetic fields are not one in the same. We know how magnetic fields are generated - e.g. by ions in motion - compare electric motors and electric turbines for another way. We do not know how gravity is generated - though there are some good educated guesses! Magnetic fields effect only charged particles. There is no charge for gravity - it flows free!

Saiph · Nov 21, 2005

an electron that accelerates emits a photon. As an electron is charged, accerating it creates a changing electric field. A changing electric field induces a changing magnetic field...which creates/reinforces the changing electric field, thus a moving, self-propagating "electro-magnetic" wave is born...i.e. light, a.k.a. a photon. When an electron makes a transition in an atom from one energy level to another, such a situation occurs, and the electron creates a photon due to the acceleration required to change states. As for sound: you said, and I quote: "Light is a frequency between sound and gamma rays" Which is...very problematic. First, gamma rays are light, as light is any electromagnetic wave. As such light can have frequencies ranging from very low (less than a single Hertz) or very high (millions or billions of hertz). Sound is also a wave, and also has a frequency. It to can range from very low, to very high. However, it is a different type of wave, and requires a medium. Sound can exist in space, however the medium is very, very thin, and so sound attenuates rapidly, and travels slowly. This medium is the few particles per cubic centimeter that exist in the "vacuum" of space. It isn't an aether. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Swampcat · Nov 21, 2005

"Anytime your ready." Ready for what? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

cuddlyrocket · Nov 21, 2005

"But if electrons do emit light then is the light emitted part of the electrons decay along with other frequencies? I didn’t mean that light was the only thing that happens when particles decay." I think, gammarayburst, that you are being confused by the word emit in the phrase: 'an electon emits a photon'. Emit here doesn't mean that the photon was originally part of the electron, like the case of a bullet being emitted from a gun. The electron causes a photon to be generated, like a human emits sound - the sound isn't contained in the human beforehand. A moving electron has energy and momentum. In order to slow down it must transfer both. This can be to other electrons and protons in its environment, but another method is to emit (generate) a photon, which carries away both. When particles decay, they cease to exist and transform into something else. An electron emitting (generating) a photon is not decaying. It continues to exist, just with less energy and momentum. Sound and light are not frequencies. They are both waves. Waves can vary in certain parameters, one of which is frequency (the others are amplitude and phase). Frequency is a measurement you can make of waves to distinguish different types from one another (basically it is the number of times the waves reaches its peak amplitude per second). For sound, changes in frequency are heard as a change in pitch, and for visible light as changes in colour.

jatslo · Nov 21, 2005

"...I was beginning to think you were like another poster on this thread that wouldn't know a fact if it slapped him up side the head.." <--- Anytime you are ready to point out a fact, FACT as ignorance, in your usual arrogant language.

kmarinas86 · Nov 21, 2005

Someone who says the word gay has a thought which = gay! The more you say the word gay, the more you are gay. Someone who says the word stupid has a thought which = stupid! The more you say the word stupid, the more you are stupid. Someone who says the word dumb has a thought which = dumb! The more you say the word dumb, the more you are dumb. Someone who says the word cool has a thought which = cool! The more you say the word cool, the more you are cool. Someone who says the word excellent has a thought which = excellent! The more you say the word excellent, the more you are excellent. Someone who says the word arrogant has a thought which = arrogant! The more you say the word arrogant, the more you are arrogant. The more you talk about ignorance, the more ignorant you are! So watch what you say....

jatslo · Nov 21, 2005

I replyed to arrogance; I did not initiate it. If more of you SDC regulars would deal with arrogance for what arrogance is, then maybe arrogance will go away. Avoiding conflict only stengthens bad behavior.

kmarinas86 · Nov 21, 2005

If you're going to reply to "arrogance". Speak in the first or third person, not the second. Except in the following case. It is true, Arrogance, that you are troublesome. <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />

jatslo · Nov 21, 2005

Their big ego is nothing but hot air. Stand up to them and they'll cool off. 3rd-party is not sufficient enough at combating bad behavior.

nexium · Nov 21, 2005

Arrogance is not always bad, but even when arrogance is counter productive, it is best ignored. Only setting a good example succeds more often than conflict and conflict rarely bares good fruit. While I think the big bang is likely wrong, this thread has done little to bust the big bang in my opinion. Neil

jatslo · Nov 21, 2005

Behaviors help in managing conflict: [1] Do not ignore. [2] Do not avoid. [3] Confront the undesirable behavior immediately. [4] Bring others to act as medium or conduit. [5] The sooner you deal with a behavior, the sooner the bad behavior will go away; it will not go away by itself. [6] Politics and power are often dishonest and evil; power in numbers.

harmonicaman · Nov 21, 2005

"The most important scientific revolutions all include, as their only common feature, the dethronement of human arrogance from one pedestal after another of previous convictions about our centrality in the cosmos." - Stephen Jay Gould US author, naturalist, paleontologist, & popularizer of science (1941 - 2002)

jatslo · Nov 21, 2005

Hey, I am a Solar System now. Arrogance, ...? [1] Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance. [2] Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak. Arrogant contempt for another is a unprofessional political maneuver to gain notoriety. A great leader leads by example.

Saiph · Nov 21, 2005

You guys really should take the debate on how to deal with forum behavior to another thread. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

jatslo · Nov 21, 2005

i am done

Swampcat · Nov 22, 2005

"i am done" Goodbye. PS -- For somebody that claims to have solved such physical problems as time travel and FTL travel you sure have a curious attitude toward arrogance. But Saiph is right. This is the wrong forum for this kind of thing. I apologize for baiting the hook. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ------------------------------------------------------------------- "I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."Thomas Jefferson </div>

vulture2 · May 27, 2006

Hoyle gave a talk at SUNY Buffalo when I was a student there in the early 70's. Even he had doubts about steady-state at that time. The main problems include the microwave background, which has been measured precisely by satelite observation, and the consistent differences in structure between galaxies at great distance and those closer to us, as well as the lack of any evidence for new matter spontaneously appearing. Calculations of distance and velocity of recession are supported by a combination of 1) parallax, 2) cephid variables, and 3) brightness curves of type Ia supernovae, the latter provide a standard candle for distance measures out to near the observable limit and very high redshifts. There are a bunch of unknowns in cosmology, but the big bang is on pretty solid ground.

alkalin · May 27, 2006

Actually the microwave background was predicted accurately based on blackbody of the stars everywhere in the range of 1 to 5 degrees K. When measured it was found to be 2.7 K. Not bad, and not nearly as stupid as the cosmologists had predicted. Parallax is only valid in the nearby stars in our own galaxy. Cepheid’s actually do not carry the scale to andromeda and maybe a bit further. Andromeda is actually closer to us due the intervening matter that makes Andromeda dimmer-hence APPEAR further than it is. The same is true of supernovae for more distance scale. We are not there yet.

Big Bang Busted (Again)

kmarinas86

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Swampcat

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