Black holes and the big bang

[tituscicero]

Please enlighten me for I am confused about some things.<br /><br />Do black holes ever die? The reason why I ask is I wonder how the big bang could of occurred if the whole universe was packed into something as small as an atom. One would think that the gravity within this singularity would be so great that it couldn’t expand?<br /><br />I guess you can say in part that gravity did not exist?<br />

 

[alokmohan]

They are immortals,unless they explode.When they explode?When they cool too much.

 

[themage]

Theoretically, black holes evaporate due to hawking radiation.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation <br /><br />EDIT: as for the big bang, we don't know what happened Other then the theory is "There was nothing, then all of a sudden there was something".

 

[tituscicero]

Thanks for the heads up on Hawking Radiation.<br /><br />You mean you don't know what happened during the big bang? That's soooo limited. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />All kidding aside it befuddles my mind to think something so dense could of "exploded."

 

[weeman]

Well, it didn't exactly explode, it expanded. <br /><br />The dynamics between something exploding, and something expanding, are vastly different. I personally don't believe that the characteristics of black holes have much to do with the answers to the origin of the universe (how it expanded, and why). <br /><br />The thing to remember is that the big bang was not an expansion <i>into</i> pre-existing space, but rather it was the expansion of space itself. Misconceptions of the big bang are what lead people to believing false facts about the big bang theory. If you visualize that the big bang was an explosion of matter into infinitely empty space, then you would have a picture in your mind that empty space is infinite, but the material universe (stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) is finite. However, this is not at all what the big bang theory states. The big bang theory states that all of space is expanding into itself. There is no edge, there is no outside, these is no boundry. You could hop in your spaceship and travel forever and ever and EVER and never reach the end of the universe!<br /><br />So, I don't entirely see how the dynamics of black hole singularities, can be directly related to the expansion of the big bang's singularity. Black holes exist within space around them, space that has already existed before they were here. Whereas the big bang was the very expansion of space itself, before the big bang, there was no space. Not to say that there was nothing, there just wasn't any space. I am a firm believer that anything could have happened before the big bang, because no one knows, so any theories we come up with, could be perfectly plausible. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[lukman]

According to Wiki, electromagnetic range is 10^45meter, if photon is a form of electromagnetic, then after 10^45meter, which is 10^29 year light will die. If light similar to gravity, then BH will die after 10^29 year. Only a think <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[tituscicero]

Thanks for the reply Weeman.<br /><br />An expansion going faster than light seems like an “explosion,†at least in my finite wisdom. Please don’t forget the double quote’s around the word.<br /><br />I can see how a black hole could be compared to the “primeval atom†before the big bang. Because within that egg there existed space, right? So the same rules apply within the egg before expansion (I think is my real question?) And something soooooo dense like a black hole or a “primeval atom†should be sooooo dense that nothing could escape? So how in the name of god did it expand, and how did it expand so quickly from such a dense point? Which makes me wonder if the same thing, whatever that thing is, could happen to a black hole? That may sound ridiculous, and I would agree, but if something so dense as an atom with the universe in it can do it then why not a black hole?<br /><br />Something that seems obvious to me by just looking at nature in general: why make one when you can have two, three, ten… a billion. Seems to me that there are probably other universes out there in whatever “it†is. Maybe they will expand to join, maybe they already have and we can’t see it yet. It would probably blow the “big RIP†theory out of the water. And maybe I am just insane and stupid? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I think my mind cannot grasp nothingness beyond our universe. So naturally I have to fill in the blanks. Because if we have nothingness all around us does that not make us nothing?<br /> <br />EDIT: Is it theoretically impossible to go strait in a curved space-time? Maybe if you had the super-duper upgraded alien spaceship? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />EDIT 2: I was a quark last night and now I am a proton. Now I am expanded! Maybe the “primeval atom†posted on a forum board. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[weeman]

It's hard to visualize space within the singularity before inflation, because a singularity is so incredibly small, 10^-43 centimeters. In other words, an atom appears huge compared to the original singularity. <br /><br />I often think that maybe we aren't supposed to know answers like these, we will never know why or how it happened. We are beings that always search for truth and answers, we want to believe that our existence has a set purpose.<br /><br />I wouldn't get bent out of shape trying to visualize 'nothingness', because personally, I'm not sure if it even exists (or should I say doesn't exist <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Many people come on here asking questions like: "If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? What is outside the universe?"<br /><br />The problem with this line of thinking is that it is very one-dimensional. We are trying to understand the entire nature of the universe, based on how things exist right here on Earth. Our minds can't grasp the fact that even though the universe is expanding, it has no boundry or outside, because the universe represents everything in existence. <br /><br />As for traveling through curved space-time. Einstein believed that due to the curvuture of space, if you traveled in one direction for a long enough time, you would end up right back where you started, having circumnavigated the entire universe.<br /><br />Even if it appears that you are traveling in a straight line through space, it may not actually be the case in a literal sense. Einstein believed that gravity was a manifestation due to the presence of large mass objects warping the spacetime around them. What Einstein was saying is this: Planets orbiting a star are actually traveling on straight paths; however, due to the warped space around them from the mass of their host star, the planets appear to be traveling in circles. <br /><br />Evidence for Einstein's theory can be seen through gravitational lensing. Go ahead, try it out, search g <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><strong><font color="#ff0000">Techies: We do it in the dark. </font></strong></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>"Put your hand on a stove for a minute and it seems like an hour. Sit with that special girl for an hour and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.</strong><strong>" -Albert Einstein </strong></font></p> </div>

 

[themage]

Here is something that may answer some of your questions. Its M-theory or Membrane theory. It’s the collective/offshoot of sting theory.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

 

[siriusdogstarone]

<p>I have hawken's book&nbsp; I haven't read it in a while&nbsp; about the M-Theory .I was thinking about his book now I'll have to dig it out for sure .<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif" border="0" alt="Cool" title="Cool" /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#339966">E To The Square</font> </div>

 

[pradipta]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I have hawken's book&nbsp; I haven't read it in a while&nbsp; about the M-Theory .I was thinking about his book now I'll have to dig it out for sure . <br />Posted by siriusdogstarone</DIV><br /><p style="margin:0in0in0pt" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Dear Sir,</font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font> <p style="margin:0in0in0pt" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Since the ancestral time, world space research is progressing on wrong concept<span>&nbsp; </span>because we unknown about space mirror which is a great mystery and creator of lots of mysteries viz. milk ways, galaxies, nebulas, white dwarfs, black holes etcs. Hence without study of space mirror the space research has no future.</font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font> <p style="margin:0in0in0pt" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">In sort it can not explain in short. Therefore it invites to visit </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">http://www.spacemirrormystery.com</font><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"> to know the original truth. <span>&nbsp;</span></font></font></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pradipta</p> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>According to Wiki, electromagnetic range is 10^45meter, if photon is a form of electromagnetic, then after 10^45meter, which is 10^29 year light will die. If light similar to gravity, then BH will die after 10^29 year. Only a think <br />Posted by lukman</DIV></p><p>I have no idea where your 10^45 meter range came from.&nbsp; The electromagnetic force is usually thought of as an inverse square force (drops off inversely as the square of the distance from a point source) and is of infinite range (there is always at least a small force felt).&nbsp; WIKI is usually correct, but is sometimes wrong.&nbsp; If you found such a reference, then WIKI is also sometime self-contradictory.</p><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction</p><p>By the way 10^29 light years is a really big distance,&nbsp; quite a bit bigger than many astronomers believe to be the diameter of the universe.&nbsp; </p><p><br /><br />&nbsp;</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>By the way 10^29 light years is a really big distance,&nbsp; quite a bit bigger than many astronomers believe to be the diameter of the universe.&nbsp; &nbsp; <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Just a bit... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" />.&nbsp; </p><p>I'd say "quite a bit bigger" is a quite the understatement... at least in reference to the observable universe. </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[Fallingstar1971]

<p>What if we, and are continuing, to shrink?</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Silly point yes. All observations show the Universe to be expanding....</p><p>&nbsp;But what parts. Its not Space itself, otherwise the space between the atoms in our bodies should be expanding at the same rate, therby keeping the distances in relationship with one another. (ie, would we really see a differance?&nbsp; If you move 1 KM away from an object, and then expand everything by on KM, in the end, you will still be one KM away because your body expanding with everything else would maintain the distance. Atoms would expand as well as the particles would have to become larger or multiply&nbsp;in order to hold the atoms together as the spaces in the nucleus expanded&nbsp;&nbsp</p><p>And yes, I do know about the raisen bread comparison, but the crucial point was left unsaid.</p><p>&nbsp;The raisins do not expand. only the dough does. This is due to a differant set of ingrediants then whats in the raisin. Under heat, raisin do not expand, or expand very little.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>So what is the critical ingredient in space that allows it to expand while its contents do not? Flour, Yeast? what?</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Star</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>So what is the critical ingredient in space that allows it to expand while its contents do not? Flour, Yeast? what?&nbsp;Star&nbsp; <br /> Posted by Fallingstar1971</DIV></p><p>I don't think there is a criticla ingredient that allows for expansion.&nbsp; It's forces such as gravity and strong forces between and within particles that overwhelm any expansion.</p><p>Even in the raisin bread analogy, the yeast does't allow for expansion.&nbsp; The yeast forms CO2 as a byproduct that creates pockets within the dough that push the raisins apart (similar to voids within the universe). </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>&nbsp;Just a bit... .&nbsp; I'd say "quite a bit bigger" is a quite the understatement... at least in reference to the observable universe. <br />Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>Oh well, it is only bigger by about 19 orders of magnitude.</p><p>So if the observable universe were the size of a hydrogen nucleus (a proton) then this distance would extend out to 10 kilometers.&nbsp; </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Oh well, it is only bigger by about 19 orders of magnitude.So if the observable universe were the size of a hydrogen nucleus (a proton) then this distance would extend out to 10 kilometers.&nbsp; <br /> Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>Would you be using the Compton wavelength or charge radius of the proton... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /> </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Would you be using the Compton wavelength or charge radius of the proton... <br />Posted by derekmcd</DIV></p><p>yes<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[pradipta]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Please enlighten me for I am confused about some things. Do black holes ever die? The reason why I ask is I wonder how the big bang could of occurred if the whole universe was packed into something as small as an atom. One would think that the gravity within this singularity would be so great that it couldn&acirc;&euro;&trade;t expand? I guess you can say in part that gravity did not exist? <br />Posted by TitusCicero</DIV><br /><br /><p style="margin:0in0in0pt" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">World space research is progressing on wrong concept since the ancestral time because we unknown about space mirror which is a great mystery and creator of lots of mysteries viz. milk ways, galaxies, nebulas, white drafts, black holes etcs. Hence without study of space mirror the space research has no future.</font></p><p style="margin:0in0in0pt" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Therefore it invites all the astronomers of my country to visit </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">http://www.spacemirrormystery.com</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> to know the original truth and for prosperous space research. </font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>pradipta</p> </div>