By,By Klipper and welcome capsule.

[nyarlathotep]

<font color="yellow">I don't mean this as an insult to the Russian space workers, but the original capital to create their space program came from the Soviet state--and it was a huge amount.</font><br /><br />Yes, but all that development capital has been paid off. The marginal cost to contruct a Russian design is low, and their launchers are designed to be operated by very small ground crew.<br /><br />The Delta II is very much like the Soyuz. It was funded during the cold war by a massive defence program, has low marginal cost, an excellent launch history, and is operated by a small and now very well trained launch crew. The only difference is that unlike Soyuz, once development was completed our socialist space program killed it off to keep the rocket design bureaux busy.

 

[j05h]

I saw the articles from Farnborough as well, but have been to busy (family reunion and PostcardsToSpace.com) to post anything. <br /><br />The article that DanIKo posted is somewhat confusing, as I thought that Energia was going ahead with Kliper regardless of Russian government support. Is Energia being reigned in? I'm all for an evolved Soyuz, or a revised 5-7 seat "Zarya" capsule, or Kliper. Or all of the above. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[daniko]

Here is the expected comment from the head of RKK Energia - N. Sevastyanov. It expectedly sounds more optimistic (my humble translation effort):<br /><br /><b>"After 2015, when we plan to start exploatation of "Klipper", modernised "Soyuz" will still be in use for Moon flights and as "life-boat" for the ISS crew. That "Soyuz" could perform Moon flights, because it's capsule can return to Earth on second space velocity.<br />Taking into account the decision of Roscossmos to support the 2-3 staged plan of RKK Energia for creation of future piloted transportation systems, modernisation of the "Soyuz" will become first step in the project "Klipper". The main goal is to switch to digital technologies. There will be established a new unified vehicle control system, which will control all board systems ... This change (to digital) will increase reliability, accuracy. It will make all the systems multifunctional which will reduce the overall system number and save space and weight. It'll make the ship more contemporary and comfortable and increases consumers benefits. Transfering the vehicle control system from aggregate compartment to the descent capsule will allow multiple use which will decrease costs. Modernised "Soyuz" will require only pilot to control, where as the current version requires a board engineer. As a result two of the three seats on the ship could be commercial. Also we retain the goal to make possible the fully automated flight of "Soyuz" to ISS and back."</b><br /><br />As a whole it seams to me quite reasonable and more attainable. It also reflects the the necessity for the russian space industry to replace some of already aged technologies.<br />There are also some signs that this is a plan that most likely will be supported by EU.

 

[j05h]

> As a whole it seams to me quite reasonable and more attainable. It also reflects the the necessity for the russian space industry to replace some of already aged technologies.<br />There are also some signs that this is a plan that most likely will be supported by EU.<br /><br />Dan, thanks for the translations! It sounds like "soyuz" and "kliper" will become a single effort, producing several different vehicles using common components? Reusable capsules and digital controls sound good to me. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[henryhallam]

I took these photos of the Kliper models from the FSA stand at the Farnborough Air Show (which was awesome)<br />http://tinyurl.com/fljhd<br />http://tinyurl.com/ez3uk

 

[henryhallam]

Crew cabin:

 

[daniko]

The News log: "Novosti-kosmonavtiki" had closed for the summer, but they published a last interview with the head of RKK Energia - N.Sevastyanov before that (MHTE):<br /><br /><b><br />"After the modernisation russian space ship "Soyuz" would be able to commit one year long space missions, fly to the Moon and on the way back enter Earth's atmosphere on a velosity of 11,2 km/s flawlessly and transporting crew. Renewed using high technologies "Soyuz", will become universal space ship. ... Universality will consist of the posibility one model to commit flights to ISS as flights to Moon and back. ... The basic difference of the moon version of the ship would be the thickness of it's heat shield.<br />Now "Soyuz-TMA" contains five different radio-systems, which means that on boars are mounted five bulky and heavi transmitters, five receivers and five amplifiers, all of which developed through 70-s, with the use of analog element base. Digital systems will allow to combine all of this systems in one compact unit ..."<br /></b><br /><br />and in another interview<br /><br /><b><br />"Based on the modernised space ship "Soyuz" RKK Energia has plans to create trans orbital tug "Parom" for multiple use, which in 2009 will replace the expendable space transport ships type "Progress". ... The use of "Parom" will decrease transportation expenses for deliveries to ISS three-four times."<br /></b><br /><br />So here are my several remarks:<br />1. The russians plan to use the current situation and the expected Space Shuttle Retirement and to become practically monopolist in space transportation of humans and loads. (lowest prices, highest reliability)<br />2. It's expected to appear the need for transportation of humans to and from the moon orbit. There are multiple variants one of which is SpaceAdventures offer for round the moon paid voyage or moon orbital station.<br />3. If "Parom" is to become operational in 2009 and has the systems from the modernised "Soyuz" this supposes that modernised "

 

[tohaki]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>2. It's expected to appear the need for transportation of humans to and from the moon orbit. There are multiple variants one of which is SpaceAdventures offer for round the moon paid voyage or moon orbital station.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>It would be fun to send a Soyuz to the moon.

 

[tohaki]

I quite like these illustrations of the plan Constellation Services International has outlined.<br /><br />http://www.thespacereview.com/gallery/7<br /><br />http://www.thespacereview.com/article/199/1

 

[j05h]

<i>>So here are my several remarks:<br />1. The russians plan to use the current situation and the expected Space Shuttle Retirement and to become practically monopolist in space transportation of humans and loads. (lowest prices, highest reliability)</i><br /><br />I think they understand that American competition is on the way, and are leveraging their commercial head start. Soyuz is an excellent and unique product, but can expect strong competition from the Dragon capsule and others. <br /><br /><i>> 2. It's expected to appear the need for transportation of humans to and from the moon orbit. There are multiple variants one of which is SpaceAdventures offer for round the moon paid voyage or moon orbital station.</i><br /><br />In the time it has taken NASA to design viewgraphs of spacecraft that might be built in another decade or so, Space Adventures and Energia have been actively pursuing a lunar agenda. Private adventurers may beat NASA back t the Moon. <br /><br /><i>> 3. If "Parom" is to become operational in 2009 and has the systems from the modernised "Soyuz" this supposes that modernised "Soyuz" is expected to start operations in 2008.</i><br /><br />I'm really looking forward to Parom. Yes, that means they are getting ready to build another Soyuz upgrade, probably with the opening of the new production line. The new assembly line is supposed to open in 08 or 09. Exciting times!<br /><br /><i>> 4. These short development terms mean nice funding and thechnological help. May be European industry will aid in development of the new digital hardware.</i><br /><br />Part of it is internal funding, IIRC, spurred on by things like Space Adventure's clients. Soyuz is becoming the first de-facto spaceline.<br /><br /><i>> 5. "Klipper" will wait till transportation market for humans-to-LEO services grow enough.</i><br /><br />Kliper is really cool, but it might never get built - 3-seat Soyuz may be to cheap, especially if it's eventually de-mated from the R-7 derived roc <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[daniko]

So m-r Sevastianov keeps speaking and I keep reading <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I came across two interviews of N. Sevastianov, that helped me put the whole picture together.<br /><br />The first one is with the magazine "Russian Cosmos" (<b>rk@roscosmos.ru</b>) and was titled MANNED SPACEFLIGHT TO BE COST-EFFICIENT<br />The interview touches some questions of the future of "Klipper" and the modernisation process for the "Soyuz", but it was taken before the anouncement of ROSCOSMOS ending the contest for future human space transportation system.<br /><br />The second one is really precious. It's an interview with the "Novosti Kosmonavtiki" published in it's last issue from july.2006 and is entitled "RKK Energia: development concepts of russian manned space program". It explains in depth the concepts presented by RKK Energia before representatives of Roscosmos, Russian Science Academy and a number of russian space industry companies on 14.feb.2006. The values of the interview are:<br />- This is the plan that Roscosmos adopted after the abortion of the contest for future human space transportation system. This makes it analogous to the US Vision For Space Exploration, only quite more justified.<br />- The mission profiles for the upgraded "Soyuz" (the touristic also)<br />- What role will be cast for "Parom" Tug<br />- The proper missions for "Klipper" - it'll become not only self sustained project but is expected to generate a lot of profit.<br />- Plans for "slow" tug version with electrical prop. system<br />- Moon flight profiles<br />Unfortuately it's 8 pages .pdf and is only in russian. I tryed to Google any translated version but nope !<br /><br />If no one can find translation I'll translate it later.

 

[gunsandrockets]

Thanx for the high points. I look forward to your translation.

 

[carp]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> The advanced Soyuz for going to the moon and Klipper for space station human transport. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> And the money?<br />

 

[nacnud]

Probably from ACTS, a joint ESA and Russian program.

 

[carp]

ESA pay (maybe) only for one veichle,and now is more interested in lunar missions.

 

[josh_simonson]

A parafoil is deployable wings, and lighter than hard wings.

 

[CalliArcale]

In case nobody's mentioned this yet, one plan for the ultimately-cancelled (okay it was never really approved in the first place; it was an industry trade study) Big Gemini called for it to use an inflatable Rogallo wing -- basically a giant hanglider. It's been thought about, but not yet done. Closest was the CRV's parafoil, and unfortunately that's been cancelled. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[carp]

Delay for Klipper. http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kliper_2006.html http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kliper_lunar.html

 

[j05h]

More on Kliper sinking while Soyuz rises:<br /><br />http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20060802/52194380.html<br /><br />josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[carp]

Farewell Klipper.<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Kliper Has Too Many Unknowns<br /><br />Excited scientists and members of the media gather round the Russian Kliper. <br />by Andrei Kislyakov<br />RIA Novosti political commentator<br />Moscow (UPI) Aug 04, 2006<br />People say that Russians and Americans are very much alike. Mentally, of course. Especially when we think of something big and impressive, such as a space effort. Sometimes, we copy each other's problems with mirror-like precision. Here is the latest example.<br />Until recently no one could doubt the prospects of Russia's reusable space transport system. For some years the Russian Space Agency (Roskosmos) has been talking its head off about the Kliper craft as the system's core. When early this year a tender was announced for developing and manufacturing a spaceship, it was a mere formality.<br /><br />Everybody knew the winner would be the Energiya Rocket and Space Corporation's Kliper project. Its features have been paraded dozens of times, its mock-ups have been on display at shows and exhibitions from Tokyo to Paris to Berlin. The fruit was about to fall from the tree.<br /><br />Also until recently we knew practically nothing of a similar American project. The Americans intend to build, under NASA's Constellation Program, the reusable Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV) for missions to the International Space Station and, later to the Moon and Mars.<br /><br />Overnight everything changed. Late in June, speaking at the Farnborough aerospace show, the Roskosmos leadership suddenly announced that they were suspending the tender and would instead adopt a multi-stage program of creating a space transport vehicle. Now the main emphasis is on the time-tested orbital workhorse, the Soyuz spacecraft. On the American side, everything is tip-top and clear. They have even come up with a name: Orion.<br /><br />From elementary algebra we know that a linear equation like X + 5 = 10 can be solved when ther</p></blockquote>

 

[krrr]

<font color="yellow">Unfortuately it's 8 pages .pdf and is only in russian. I tryed to Google any translated version but nope ! </font><br /><br />That interview is now online in English here.

 

[daniko]

HA, HA, HA<br /><br />I've just finished my translation of these 8 pages yesterday <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /> !!!<br /><br />O.k. I'll work on my speed I guess <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />So this is the new current russian <b><font color="red">"vision for space exploration"</font></b>and how does it look to you ?<br /><br />I think the move with "Kliper" was an advertisment campaign but sadly noone bites the bait. As mentioned in the cited article:<br /><br /><font color="blue"><b>It emerges that Energiya and all the rest of them have been working on something which was in no way to be subsidized. Or, if subsidized, then the program had to be "drastically changed."</b></font><br /><br />Forgive my optimism but I think that in the new program "Kliper" has a logical and realistic place.

 

[daniko]

IMHO it is an old news <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> !!!<br /><br />my comments were posted <b><i>20.july</i></b>