Camping out in suits

holmec · Nov 22, 2006

For the moon, I'm guessing that new space suits will be made. My question is that should they be redesigned from Apollo and modified to keep the astronaut going for longer periods of time? Wouldn't this be more productive? Modifications like how to get the poop out of the suit without getting the man out of the suit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

JonClarke · Nov 22, 2006

Certainly new suits would be needed. The current generation of suits are completely unsuitable and the Apollo suits were only adequate for about 3 EVAs. Current suits are not designed for walking and are too massive. the Apollo suits got clogged with dust. Endurance is not really the issue, I suggest. The Apollo suits could support, with rserve 8 hour EVAs. This is adequate. With plug in life support on unpressurised rovers you could extend this to 12 hours. But carrying 12 hours of consumables on our back alone would be a tough proposition. Plus people need rest and sleep. You can sleep in a suit, as Apollo 12 and 14 showed, But it isn't comfortable. For long periods on the Moon it would be better of having an EVA cycle of 8-12 hour EVAs every other day. With 4 crew, as proposed in VSE, that means you would have one astronaut pair outside every day while the other would be doing house keeping duties inside. This is consistent with Shuttle practice, where people have EVAs every other day where possible, and the conclusions of the Apollo astronauts that over the long term daily EVAs would be too tiring. Rather than greater endurance, I suggest lighter weight, improved flexibility and dexterity, easy servicing (especially filter and absorber replacement) and surface materials and dsign that was both easy to clean and did not collect dust, would be the most important attributes. Improved donning and doffing (over Apollo), perhaps with an Orlan type rear access, and a pressurisation regime designed for multiple EVAs rather than the current ISS and Shuttle system which requires lengthy prebreath periods would also be important. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

holmec · Nov 22, 2006

Great point, Jon. I concur with you for less weight and more flexibility. So what about consumables? Say water. I understand that in the past and current in low earth orbit that water is taken aboard the suits. But on the moon you can set things down and use a rover/work area. So what about consumables where you don't need to keep it aboard the suit, but just plug a pressurised 12oz to 20oz canister on the suit, and also unplug and replace? Another idea would be how about small air pillows in the suit that you can inflate and deflate for comfort? Maybe something like that could be useful to be able to sleep in the suit. Yeah, yeah,.....sure you can laugh it up when thinking of an automated sponge bath in the suit. But I think some accommodations could be worth while and maybe life saving in an emergency. I think accommodations should be in the form of being plugged in to the suit and not necessarily powered by the suit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

steve82 · Nov 22, 2006

Actually endurance is very important. The suits are supposed to provide 120 hours of pressurized service for the emergency return to earth in an unpressurized CEV scenario. The Depends test to end all!

JonClarke · Nov 23, 2006

Yes and no. The sense of the original post was, as I read it, in connection to EVAs. During an emergency return to Earth the suit would reply on being plugged into the spacecraft for life support, not the PLSS. Some heroic volunteer actually wore the Apollo suit for this length of time to test this out. Who got to clean it, I wonder? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

bpfeifer · Nov 23, 2006

Also, in an extended emergency stay in a suit, they'd be consuming liquid nourishment, so there won't be as much poop to scoop... But seriously, I think the Apollo astronauts complained about the gloves more than anything else. There's already one Centennial Challenge to design better gloves. It's an ongoing problem for ISS astronauts as well, so NASA has a vested interest in making improvements. As for pre-breath protocols for lunar EVA, I don't think it will be a problem. For shuttle EVA's they reduce the pressure for the entire shuttle rather than making the EVA astronauts do pre-breath. So if you operate your lunar lander at reduced pressure for the duration of your stay, you can eliminate the issue. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower </div>

llivinglarge · Nov 25, 2006

Less poop to scoop? They'd be ****ting themselves if they were in an unpressurized environment for that long.

JonClarke · Nov 25, 2006

Indeed.... Gloves are a big issue, I can't see any real improvement without going to MCP. But the Centennial Challenge for gloves is worded in such a way as specifically exclude MCP technology. I agree that working at a reduced pressure would be a logical conclusion for the Moon (and Mars). But that hasn't been spelled out yet, and some studies I have seen have assumed that current pressurisation regime. So we will see what happens. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

bpfeifer · Nov 26, 2006

"But the Centennial Challenge for gloves is worded in such a way as specifically exclude MCP technology. " Check the site of the guys hosting the challenge. Yes, the challenge expcludes MCP, but they have an additional MCP demonstration award. I suspect they may have a full blown MCP glove challenge in the future. http://www.astronaut-glove.us/ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower </div>

JonClarke · Nov 26, 2006

Interesting! That must be an addition. I have a friend working on MCP gloves and he was most upset when the original challenge did not allow it. that's him in the picture on the link working with gloves in a pressure chamber. The left glove is a standard shuttle glove, the rightis the MCP design he developed. It is good to see this technology being included. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

MeteorWayne · Nov 26, 2006

Sorry, guys but I haven't found MCP on the secret decoder ring. Can you enlighten me? Thanx, MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

rocketman5000 · Nov 26, 2006

MCP = mechanical counter pressure, To put in laymens terms a spandex type of material to provide pressure on the skin rather than a pressurized suit. Should allow greater mobility and ease of use.

halman · Nov 27, 2006

holmec, Sometimes, we need to think outside the box. Humans have been dealing with dangerous substances and environments for some time now, and rarely do we encase our whole body in a life support system that we can walk around in. Far more frequently, I believe, we have developed means of manipulating things remotely, with waldoes, robots, glove boxes, remotely piloted vehicles, and the like. From everything I have been hearing about Moon dust, any cycling of an airlock is going to create problems in maintenance, as the nasty stuff invades everything. As much as possible, we will want to be able to use remote manipulators, sensors, and robots to explore the off planet environment. Suiting up will always be a part of life, but probably not one that is done several times a week. For an example of remote manipulators, see 'The Andromeda Strain' or '2001: A Space Odyssey'. Having a pod which can detach itself from the main vehicle, while still using umbilicals to supply air and power, a person could explore the immediate surroundings, pick up samples, inspect equipment, set up experiments, and operate other equipment, all without having to put on a suit. But there should always be one ready for use, so that that one place where the manipulators won't reach can be accessed, or the crevice that is too small to explore with a pod can be checked out. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> The secret to peace of mind is a short attention span. </div>

bpfeifer · Nov 27, 2006

I like the idea of rear-entry suits that dock with the outside of your space vehicle or pressurized rover. No-one goes through an airlock, hence no dust contamination. It certainly has drawbacks, but it's one way of dealing with dust. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower </div>

MeteorWayne · Nov 27, 2006

Thanx from a layman <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

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