Can a rock break the Speed. Of. Light. [the remake]

[why06]

<b><font color="yellow">Can a rock break the speed of light:<font color="white"></font></font></b><br /><i>-The double bullet theory-</i><br /><br />- Once long a go there was a post in SS&A that rocked the ages and will forever be remembered as one of why06's greatest thread of all time... A fierce battle was fought throughout the thread. to determine the outcome. <br /><b>1st</b> There was the idea of dropping a rock into an infinitely large vacuum-tube, but the laws of Einstein would not allow.<br /><b>2nd</b> There was the thought of shooting an bullet at the sun, but again Einstien kicked our a%$es<br /><b>BUT LAST</b> <font color="yellow"> There was an idea that shocked Einstien himself...<br />THE DOUBLE BULLET PARADOX<br /><font color="white">It went like this:<br />We shoot a bullet at the sun going at near "c" (99.9999999% or something)<br />Next we shoot a bullet immediately after it also at near "c"<br />I suggested That the first bullet would open a pathway for the second bullet (<i> Just like the front car in NasCar races will break the air for the rest of the pack</i>)<br />This will create a tunnel effect and the second bullet should be able to speed up through the gap in space-time. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">I thought this was a great original thread that lost attention in its prime. So I fee humbled to bring it back up. So here we go. Say what YOU think (right or wrong). Because I believe Einstein might be just as confused as us. <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /><font color="white"><br /><br /><br /><br />The link to the original thread</font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[SpeedFreek]

Hi there why06! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />So, you are suggesting that a mass travelling at near c leaves a small "hole" or wake in the space-time behind it?<br /><br />On what do you base this suggestion? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>

 

[why06]

I base it on the fact that space-time is compressed the faster on goes and therefore is stretched out behind. Just like with NASCAR or the doppler effect. It is a simple fact that you can move faster through a median once something else has parted your way.<br /><br />This is why a diver puts his hands out infront of him<br />Why NASCAR's drive in a pack<br />Why when a boat sinks people get sucked in after it<br /><br /><font color="yellow">-Quick reply speedfreak <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[SpeedFreek]

Yes I understand the idea of drafting in NASCAR, or slipstreaming. I am an avid motorsports fan and understand something of aerodynamics and computational fluid dynamics. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />But is your idea of spacetime acting in the same manner your own, or established theory?<br /><br />The idea that the first bullet could deflect all particles away leaving a wake of true vacuum behind seems plausible. But creates a hole in spacetime itself? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>

 

[vogon13]

So what happens when bullet #2 overtakes bullet #1 ??<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[why06]

I would guess that bullet 2 would never hit bullet one because if it did it would be going faster than SOL. Maybe it would just warp out of existence temporarilly because time does not propogate fast enough to acknowledge it. <br /><br /><font color="yellow">Would this be a way to achieve a tachyon like particle? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[why06]

I don't believe we need to make a hole in space-time, but essentially stretch it ou enough by the first bullet that it can not be stretch anymore.<br /><br />Would this not give the go ahead for bullet #2 to reach or exceed light speed? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[vogon13]

Time doesn't propogate fast enough???????????????????<br /><br />Then the bullet would be going slow, not fast.<br /><br />Think about it.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[why06]

<font color="yellow">I used the term: "doppler effect" to symbolize something else.<font color="white"><br />Look at it like this:<br />When a train goes by and blows its horn at first the pich is higher because the train compresses the souds waves. As the train leaves the pich sounds lower because the sound waves are stretched out. (I know you know this, but you may have got my point the wrong way)<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Now if we apply this to space-time should not it also be stretched. I'm not trying to put aside Einstien's laws because I need them for the sake of the experiment.</font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[why06]

no.<br />It would begin to skip through space-time until space-time finally became dense enough to see its movements clearly.<br /><br />Time does not propogate fast enough for it to accelerate.<br />-P.S.- speed is dependent on time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[vogon13]

Less time is soaking into the bullet.<br /><br />Not more time.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[why06]

As time space adn time become stretched out it means that time propogation are spread out just like sound waves. For this reason it covers more space in less time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[dragon04]

As promised, I will reply to this.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">I suggested That the first bullet would open a pathway for the second bullet ( Just like the front car in NasCar races will break the air for the rest of the pack)</font><br /><br />Tony Stewart takes advantage of a phenomenon that is identifyable in terms of slower than Relativistic speeds in a medium that is not a vacuum.<br /><br />Indeed, you're talking about "drafting" where a driver can take advantage of negative (or relative zero) air pressure to gain mechanical advantage over the other drivers who are running in the same medium and running under the same aerodynamic principles and the same power output.<br /><br />However, in space (a vacuum), there are no aerodynamic benefits to be derived. the "lead bullet" is not providing an "easier path" for the "following bullet" to enjoy other than the odd atom that the lead bullet deflects.<br /><br />The effect and benefits are insignificant. We don't even have to take Relativity into consideration. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[fear]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>However, in space (a vacuum), there are no aerodynamic benefits to be derived. the "lead bullet" is not providing an "easier path" for the "following bullet" to enjoy other than the odd atom that the lead bullet deflects. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />He's not suggesting it's aerodynamic. Instead it's ruffling space behind it. <br />See here:<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I base it on the fact that space-time is compressed the faster one goes and therefore is stretched out behind. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Really it’s an idea for warp drive not for violating the rule of moving past c. In other words the second rock does not really go past c; space itself moves the rock some, so it seems like all together it is going past c, I don’t know if it would work or not. <br /><br />If there were some way to distort space on a macro level though then you’d definitely have warp drive. <br /><br />In fact we are all moving at warp speed now! The universe is expanding at every point, so the further you move away from earth the more space is between you, thus the more spatial expansion is going on between you and the earth. If you get very far away from earth there is SO much expanding space between you and earth that light from earth will NEVER reach you. So there are actually regions of space that we won’t ever see because light from them has to cover a distance that keeps getting longer and longer so fast that the light can’t catch up and it never will.<br /><br />*edit*<br /> Wiki on the cosmological horizen due to expanding space.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<font color="yellow">In fact we are all moving at warp speed now!</font><br /><br />No, we are not. We are moving at less than light speed relative to our individual points of reference because within that frame of reference, we cannot move at superluminal velocities.<br /><br />You can try to defeat the mathematics that say I am right, but you will fail.<br /><br />Even if you and I reside in a galaxy that is receding at "superluminal velocities" with respect to ther galaxies, that doesn't mean that we can harness the forces that only seem to work on hugely macroscopic scales<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[fear]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> We are moving at less than light speed relative to our individual points of reference because within that frame of reference, we cannot move at superluminal velocities.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> Yes, of course, you are absolutely right in that <b>velocity</b> does not <b>ever</b> exceed c but I’m not talking about velocity. Forget velocity, all I’m talking about is getting from point A to point B before the light beam does. There are lots of light beams beyond the cosmic horizon that will never be able to move to places I can move to. <font color="yellow">I think using the word “speed” in “warp speed” was misleading of me</font> I’m not exactly sure what to call it, though, when you outrun a beam of light.<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> that doesn't mean that we can harness the forces that only seem to work on hugely macroscopic scales<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> I’m not sure if we can harness them or not. I think we would probably have to have a tested quantum theory of gravity before we could say whether or not man will ever be able to distort space enough to jump to other stars faster than a laser beam from earth can. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[fear]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> Even if you and I reside in a galaxy that is receding at "superluminal velocities" with respect to ther galaxies, that doesn't mean that we can harness the forces that only seem to work on hugely macroscopic scales<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote> This language is really tricky. To be completely strict about it we are not moving at superluminal velocities with respect to other galaxies. We are holding almost still relative to them, it is space that is moving. So we could be <b><i>moving</i> towards</b> a galaxy but <b><i>warping</i> away</b> from it at such a high rate of warp that we won’t ever see it.<br /><br />Does any of this make sense? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[why06]

<font color="yellow">You are exactly right fear,<font color="white"><br /><br />Thanks for the help while I was gone. No I ws not talking about literally creating a drafting effectin space. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <font color="yellow">That would be stupid<font color="white">.<br /><br />Instead I am talking a bout stretching space-time out enough so that it will be easier to pas through than the compressed time so here again I say "<font color="yellow"> Traveling through more space in less time.<font color="white">"<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">Thankyou<font color="white">-<i>Can't blame me for throwing in one smiley</i>- I mean come on <b> Drafting in space</b> <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[why06]

as far as the "warp" thing I think you are using the wrong terminology... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[SpeedFreek]

Well, there might actually be a small speed increase from "drafting in space" due to the reduced matter hitting the second bullet. At relativistic speeds if you hit a speck of dust, the dust has relatively more mass compared to it's resting mass. This would indeed cause some resistance, which the bullet behind would not be subjected to.<br /><br />But as to your main point, about a mass travelling at relativistic speeds stretching or compressing space-time, I will ask again, is this part of any established theory or your own conjecture? I was under the impression that gravitation was a side-effect of the nature of curved space-time, not the other way round, but I may be incorrect in this assumption! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000">_______________________________________________<br /></font><font size="2"><em>SpeedFreek</em></font> </p> </div>

 

[why06]

Only the theory of General Relativity <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Einstein is the one who said that space-time is stretched and compressed as objects move. Therefore at near light speed the first object will stretch out space time so that when the second paces in the same spot he will not have the rate of propogation of space-time slowing him down <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div>________________________________________ <br /></div><div><ul><li><font color="#008000"><em>your move...</em></font></li></ul></div> </div>

 

[daniko]

I think I found where is the tent-key <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />The trick is that SPACE-TIME is not an Ether-like thing. It is not like network that is spread through all the Unevers that Matter tickles.<br />Usually there is that example with the super elastic network on which they drop heavy balls to depict Space-Time curving. But this is misleading !!!<br /><br />Here is the right one:<br />Space and Time are created by Matter<br />Space and Time Only exist around Matter<br />Space and Time Only can be measured by Matter.<br /><br />So about the two bullets:<br />First bullet can interfere with the Time-Space of the second bullet only if they are relatively close.<br />Otherwise - sorry no bonus for the second one

 

[enigma10]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Can a rock break the speed of light: <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br /><br /> Well. Its official. After an exaustive and extensive testing by me and my friends, and hours worth of rock-paper-scissors, the answer is no, it cant. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"<font color="#333399">An organism at war with itself is a doomed organism." - Carl Sagan</font></em> </div>

 

[stopthinking]

I have some questions. I read this post and it made me think. <br />My first series of Questions: (If you would humor me.)<br />One form of light can travel faster than others, right?<br />Is there any friction in space besides gravities?<br />Time is perceived by known physical properties?<br />Speed is measured by the rate of change of position?<br />I have more questions, but I want to know these first.<br />Please advise.<br />T <br />p.s. Will this bbs email me when there is a response?

 

[sad_freak]

i thought.... that when you get somthing to c then all the energy you put into going faster becomes matter.<br /><br />like when protons are a ccellerated to c they just put on weight. at least alby says that. <br /><br />i've not been on in ages, hello again. and i'm a chemist not a physisit, but that's just my thoughts. <br /><br />happy to answer chem questions.