Cassini/Huygens Mission Update Thread

[bobvanx]

The scientist who spent 18 years on the Channel A experiment speaks up.<br /><br />Having been involved myself in a few projects with many people and lots of possibilities for breakdowns, I have to wonder why he appears to have trusted that it was going to be okay, especially in light of the fact that the communication protocols had already been goofed up, once. I sure made certain that my parts were fully integrated and ready to do their job, even and especially when I got those "Oh, it'll be fine" sorts of answers.

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"There are known ways (of varying complexity) to transmit..." -- sky5000</font><br /><br />I don't know much about this stuff, but according to PeteB's post, it looks like there was very little computing capacity available:<br /><br /><i>"...microprocessor running at 12 MHz , 128 kbytes of program RAM, 64 kbytes of data RAM..."</i><br /><br />I'm sure there are good resons for this: Weight and power limitations. The need for a simple, robust design. No doubt, even consumer electronics nowadays are very impressive in what they can do. But they cannot withstand the rigors of spaceflight and operate to near perfection. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[telfrow]

http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=7393215&pageNumber=1<br /><br />Titan a 'Flammable' Moon Covered in Liquid Gas<br />Fri Jan 21, 2005 07:16 AM ET <br />By Ben Berkowitz <br />LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Saturn's moon Titan is covered by "dirty" ice ridges and seas of liquid natural gas, a team of scientists said on Friday after a week of research into data from the space probe Huygens. <br />"We've got a flammable world," said Toby Owen, an atmospheric scientist, at a news conference from European Space Agency offices in Paris monitored on NASA TV. <br />After a seven-year piggyback trip from Earth on board the Saturn probe Cassini, the European-designed Huygens separated in December and fell toward Titan, entering the moon's atmosphere last Friday. <br />The probe, part of a $3 billion joint mission involving NASA and the European and Italian space agencies, sent back readings on the moon's atmosphere, composition and landscape. <br />Slowed by parachutes, Huygens took more than two hours to float to the icy surface, where it defied expectations of a quick death and continued to transmit for hours. <br />That surface, which scientists have said was the consistency of wet sand or even creme brulee, features ice rocks, channels, and abundant indications of liquid from rain. <br />"There's lots of evidence of fluid flow," said Marty Tomasko, the principal investigator for Huygens' on-board imaging instruments. While it does not rain every day on Titan, Tomasko and colleagues speculated there must be some sort of regular precipitation on the surface. <br />The methane can exist in liquid form on Titan's surface because it is so cold, -290 degrees Fahrenheit (-179 degrees Celsius). Methane is also a key component in Titan's atmosphere, along with nitrogen. But as opposed to the Earth, the atmosphere of Titan lacks <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[thechemist]

Seeing, touching and smelling the extraordinarily Earth-like world of Titan <br />A summary of today's ESA science press conference.<br /><br />Also : Islands, rivers and methane springs - latest images of Titan <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[titanman]

I waited patiently for the news conference today before posting this message...<br /><br />I watched Cassini blast off 7 years ago. I have a Cassini poster from JPL on my office wall...I followed this mission like a hawk. I received mission updates in the mail...for 7 flippin years. I guess you can say that I was obsessed to an extent, I had huge expectations.<br />Then the Beagle was lost...this was an ESA probe that crashed and burned. I became stressed that the same problems might exist on Huygens...I couldn't bare the thought of losing another probe to stupidity.<br />I read how the scientist who discovered the early communications problem was basically ignored and maligned for alerting people about this obscene mistake...ESA was more than lucky that they finally pulled their collective, bureaucratic head out of the European muck and addressed the problem (Oct 04 IEEE Spectrum cover story).<br />So the big day is finally arrives(Jan 14th)...no peer review of the command sequence was allowed by ESA (no NASA/JPL double check), they even complained to NASA when a 4th image was posted to the web-site...ESA demanded that it be removed because permission was not given...this after NASA/JPL allowed the data to funnel through Cassini to Earth. They(ESA) will not allow a nuclear powered missions, but it's ok to use our technology that they prohibit. I know European scientists are thinking differently now.<br />Working 20+ years on a mission is admirable but telling all the same...<br />I am very disapointed by the performance of the ESA Huygens team. <br />I think the ESA is has a long way to go before they emerge from infancy. I don't think partnering with ESA for future missions is the right thing to do, I believe they will only jeopordize our future missions and the quality of the science returned.<br />The person or people responsible for not "turning on" channel A should be hung from the nearest flagpole, sporting the most painful wedgie known to mankind.<br />"David Atkinson <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Obama - The only Space he will study is the Space between his ears - Coming soon: a new and deprived NASA with a new name!- ONASA (and say goodbye to your jobs...) </div>

 

[5stone10]

<font color="yellow">I will go to my grave convinced that we could have done so much more, but we settled for less...</font><br /><br /><br />Tomorrow and the next day are wide open !!<br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[centsworth_II]

"...shortsightedness, unthoughtfulness, open-ended, generalized, uneducated comments..." -- TitanMan<br /><br />Your own words say it best. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[titanman]

That's fine...if your only comment is to repeat what I wrote then you lack ambition and vision.<br />Is it wrong to want and expect more?<br />Knowing we are capable of so much more, is it wrong to be disapointed when the maximum effort is not made to be successful?<br />Can you understand that baby-sitting an infant European space program while attempting to execute such an important mission has disrupted and diminished the return of science from Cassini?<br />Do you think we couldn't have done it without ESA? Wrong...it would have been so much better.<br />If Cassini had used that Titan fly-by for science instead of babysitting Huygens we would have seen the same science but much more of it.<br />From the beginning, I had a bad feeling about involving the ESA.<br />Just my opinion. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Obama - The only Space he will study is the Space between his ears - Coming soon: a new and deprived NASA with a new name!- ONASA (and say goodbye to your jobs...) </div>

 

[heyo]

<i>I am very disapointed by the performance of the ESA Huygens team. </i><br /><br />I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I am on one hand ecstatic that we got to see what we did, we actually did get to see the surface and a couple of the colorized pictures are really neat. I think we all share that.<br /><br />I do agree though there was much wasted opportunity on this mission, and I think it has to do with ESA.<br /><br />I almost laughed when I clicked on a link to an image on the ESA site that said "hi-res" and saw this fuzzy patch of nothing.<br /><br />I have been careful with my criticism because I don't want to sound ungrateful, but givin the difference in culture between NASA and ESA, I'll take NASA any day.<br /><br />My main complain is with the quality of the images. The different arguments that I've heard defending the quality of the images always leads to there being to low a priority assigned to the images, that was a HUGE mistake, IMO. Higher res images, and a rotating camera mast, as well as not losing half of the images to a stupid mistake would have changed my whole outlook of this mission, and I think that is true of a large part of the general public.<br /><br />They didn't know if the probe would survive on the ground, but if it were me I would've GAMBLED that extra effort it would've taken to add capability for higher resolution pictures and a rotating camera mast on the fact it would survive. What was their attitude? "Well take better pictures NEXT time"?? WTF?<br /><br />2 risk choices...<br /><br />Either you add extra and better imaging capability for the ground, and you waste your effort on that if the probe doesnt survive landing? <br /><br />OR<br /><br />You don't add that capability and then you fly a perfet mission with a probe that sits on the ground for 3 hours taking low res pictures over and over in the same direction of the same thing, when you could have a 360 degree hi- res panorama.<br /><br />Which risk would you rather take?<br /><br />I k

 

[titanman]

I have to agree 100%<br />While I do sound ungrateful, I do appreciate the cute lill'images from ESA...<br />I definately would have been more aggressive with the instrumentation.<br />This is where the private sector would have excelled where the giant bureaucracies fail to execute. 2 bureaucracies are not better than one...<br />I still feel a bit empty but that hunger drives me forward.<br />NASA definately over ESA anyday! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Obama - The only Space he will study is the Space between his ears - Coming soon: a new and deprived NASA with a new name!- ONASA (and say goodbye to your jobs...) </div>

 

[heyo]

Amem to that, TM!<br /><br />The prevailing attitude the WHOLE time should've been "WHEN are we going to get another chance to get a working probe down to the surface of Titan?? We need to get EVERY ounce of capability that's possible onto this thing".<br /><br />When I look at the result, as cool as it is, the words "every ounce of capability" is NOT what comes to mind!<br /><br />Surface pictures of Mars and Venus from the 70's look much better than these. Much better.<br /><br />Heyo

 

[5stone10]

I'll post the exact qualifications for a 'Monday Morning Quarterback' >>><br /><br />1] Requires a Brain - Not Necessary<br />2] Can Whine Like a Hound Dog in Heat - Absolutely<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[slappymcb]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I will go to my grave convinced that we could have done so much more, but we settled for less...<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />I agree 100%. I think most people here are not engineer types and simply don't realize better technology existed, but ESA made the bonehead decision for political reasons not to use nuclear power because it's "bad" for the "environment." So everything had to be done with four hours of battery life. Imagine a once-in-a-career opportunity, decades spent preparing and planning, only to be told "sorry, you only get four hours and 1.5 amps." <br /><br />So yea, great accomplishment at cramming and compressing everything they could into those four hours (human error notwithstanding), and yea even a single temperature reading can be called "thrilling," but if people only knew what NASA or the Russians could have done for the same money and effort! <br /><br />I hope ESA realizes in the future they're not going to get very far in space on just batteries... especially when nobody's going to be willing to give them a ride!

 

[twurckle]

<i>Heyo: "They didn't know if the probe would survive on the ground, but if it were me I would've GAMBLED that extra effort it would've taken to add capability for higher resolution pictures and a rotating camera mast on the fact it would survive. What was their attitude? "Well take better pictures NEXT time"?? WTF?"</i> <br /><br />appart from the problems with bandwith mentioned earlier that would be quite a gamble... Not only was it unknown wether the probe would land but also where it would land, if it had landed in the middle of an ocean a rotatable mast would have been quite useless..Nothing was known about titan when the probe was launched, and this was a very realistic scenario.<br /><br />I'm glad they put in a full set of scientific instruments instead of leaving some of them out for one high resolution camera and rotatable mast. Imagine the critisism ESA would have gotten if the landing was not succesfull, and the mission had been for eye-candy only(and an unsuccesfull landing was very likely, considering they were clueless as to where they were landing, just look at how many mars spacecraft don't survive landing, and we know A LOT about mars). The current complaints about bad image quality would have looked mild in comparison.<br /><br />Now we have a full set of scientific data, and pictures <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm really looking forward to hearing what the scientist come up with based on all this new data.

 

[Leovinus]

Maybe we should take this discussion to another thread and leave this one for mission updates. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[titanman]

...Says the easily impressed.<br />If your satisfied so be it...<br />While your content to simmer, I'm still cooking. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Obama - The only Space he will study is the Space between his ears - Coming soon: a new and deprived NASA with a new name!- ONASA (and say goodbye to your jobs...) </div>

 

[kimpoor]

Greetings from Tucson, home of the cameras on Pathfinder, Spirit, Opportunity, and yes, Huygens.<br /><br />I think (hope) ESA will come out of their self-congratulatory, multilingual fog and become a paying partner in exploration. It's been 500 years. Hopefully they've been re-bitten by the bug. NASA really needs the financial help.<br /><br />It could've been a lot worse. Russia has the nasty habit of putting their probes to sleep, and waking them up and testing them just before encounter!<br /><br />BTW, take a look at this mosaic, put together by one of our artists, Don Davis, who was a cartographer at USGS, and an Emmy winner for COSMOS. He did this the day of the encounter, frustated by the lack of news.<br />http://www.donaldedavis.com/2005%20new/TITNAIR.jpg<br /><br />Also, take a look at this painting I did in 1985 for Time-Life before the probe had a name or design. Carolyn Porco and Jonathan Lunine, advisors.<br />http://www.novaspace.com/<br /><br />Kim Poor

 

[heyo]

<i>"appart from the problems with bandwith mentioned earlier that would be quite a gamble... Not only was it unknown wether the probe would land but also where it would land, if it had landed in the middle of an ocean a rotatable mast would have been quite useless..Nothing was known about titan when the probe was launched, and this was a very realistic scenario. </i><br /><br />All of that COULD have happened, true. But it also could have landed in a fantastic spot for exploration that would've made the high-res camera and rotating mast WELL worth the effort. Proof of the chance of that happening, IMO, is in that fact that that IS what happened. I respect the fact that little was known about the surface, but some things WERE known, and if there had been even the slightest chance that it would land where it did land and survive, I would've put a little more effort into capturing images. The MER pics make me feel like I am actually THERE. Enough about the surface was known to give it a shot.<br /><br />And I do understand and can sympathize with the difficulty of instruments competing for weight, power requirements, and the extra complexity,etc. However, I firmly believe that the great minds at NASA and ESA could have added those 2 additions without sacrificing any of the other instuments. It's more weight and complexity, but come on folks, it's not THAT much more, and this is a once in a lifetime chance to land on Titan.<br /><br />Quite a gamble, maybe, but one I would have absolutely taken.<br /><br />The mission manifested itself as 2 things very strongly. A great triumph and a missed opportunity. Both true, and both very significant. Go over to the MER forum and zoom in and scroll around on one of those big panoramas and then tell me there wasn't some missed opportunity here.<br /><br />I hope next time they go to Titan (or any other place for that matter) they do it right. That means an RTG power probe with a powerful antenna and a MER style imaging suite, in addition to

 

[telfrow]

heyo: <font color="yellow">and I think that is true of a large part of the general public.</font><br />I beg to differ.<br />I’d venture a guess that a “large part of the general public” has no idea whatsoever what planet Titan orbits and couldn’t describe what Cassini or Huygens were all about if asked.<br />In my opinion, the sad fact are these:<br />The vast majority of the “general public” got their information concerning the Huygen probe and its findings in thirty second and sixty second “blips” on NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC and Fox News. If they were aware of the mission or the probe at all, it’s passed into memory now. It’s old news. <br />Sadly, Huygens’ fifteen minutes of fame are up. <br />The vast majority of the “general public” doesn’t care about space exploration…they’d rather watch sitcoms and reality shows than be dazzled by views of Mars or Titan or from the Shuttle. <br />The “general public” looked at pictures from Spirit and Opportunity and dismissed them as photos of “a bunch of rocks.” And they’ve done the same thing with the photos of Titan. If you don’t believe that, look down a few threads. What’s the title? “Feh…another flat wasteland with a bunch of rocks.” That pretty much says it all.<br />I'm old enough to remember the Apollo program being cancelled because funding was cut. Why? The public got bored with it. Live pictures of human beings on the moon stopped being broadcast. No matter how many times I saw it, it still amazed me. But not the “a large part of the general public.” <br />Unfortunately, I think you overestimate interest in the quality of the photos or the results of the mission. They’re of interest to a small percentage of the population: die hard space fanatics (like you find here) and the scientific community. Sad, but true.<br />Am I disappointed in the quality of the photos?<br />Not really. I had some idea of what to expect by educating myself. I understood the mission and its objectives long before it reached Saturn an <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

By the way:<br />Sorry Leo. You're right. But I had to get that off my chest. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Greeting kimpoor<br /><br />What's wrong with ESA being pleased with themselves? They deserve it. Notice how the US wraps itself in flag at every opportunity?<br /><br />What's wrong with being multilingual, its an asset<br /><br />What 500 year fog?<br /><br />What this about the russians turning their probes off an on? All Russian probes I know transmitted all the eay to their mission. Key encounter instruments get turnedon before encounter, but that is SOP for everyone. The MER'sd were fully activated until after they arrived on Mars.<br /><br />Jon<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[kimpoor]

Jon,<br /><br />ESA seriously blundered by not releasing timely data while showing only mission controllers glad-handing each other--endlessly, ad nauseum. The world was waiting on news. NASA and JPL release immediate images, and provide rough analysis on-the-fly. ESA was too busy censoring images that appeared "before approval" on Huygens investigator's websites.<br /><br />The media and public have short attention spans. We had their undivided attention.<br /><br />No, I don't believe being multi-lingual is an asset in this case. It takes precious media time to do everything in ten different languages. Settle on one. Even if it's French.<br /><br />500 years give or take since Europeans explored the unknown. Glad to see them back in the game. Thanks for discovering us.<br /><br />NASA is constantly testing spacecraft systems all the way to their destination. Expensive, but gives you time to fix problems. Russians have had a pretty dismal record at Mars because of their habits. Phobos is an example.<br /><br />MERs were tested all the way to Mars (No they didn't drive around) but systems and subsystems were awake all the way.<br /><br />I detect anti-Americanism. Flag-wrapping? We came in peace for ALL mankind.<br /><br />Kim Poor<br /><br />

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"...you lack ambition and vision."</font><br /><br />What I lack is time to waste on convincing you to think differently. What I have is vision enough to see why the Huygens scientists are excited about what their probe is telling them. Whatever effort you think they put into it, they <b>were</b> successful. I could not have dreamed that they would land in such an interesting place that could tell them so much about Titan. I don't think that any single landing in the history of the space program has told so much about the object of the landing in such a short time. One reason for this is that Titan has so much to tell and thanks to Huygens we have gotten a good earfull. Ok, time's up. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[aerogi]

Why all of a sudden is the ESA gets trashed? We are still newcomers to the planetexploration. So if NASA is sooooooo great, why was the Mars Polar lander lost? Why will the Hubble not be saved? Why didn't they do anything to try to save the crew of the Columbia? <br /><br />Instead of landing the MER's into some 'save' landing site, why not trying to do something to land near or in that huge canyon? If there is one place to look for the history of water, it should be there... but do you here me complaining? No, because I simply very much appreciate what NASA has done, is doing and will be doing for space exploration!<br /><br />In space exploration, lots can go wrong, even the slightest mistake can destroy a mission. So therefore I am proud that part of my taxes went to the Huygens mission.

 

[centsworth_II]

Well take it from this american, I am very grateful for the fantastic Huygens mission that esa put together and congratulate them on its enormous success. The view Huygens has given us of Titan is amazing, astounding, and will make furthur studies by Cassini so much more meaningful. <br /><br /><font color="yellow">Huygens will go down in space exploration history as <b>the most successful</b> first landing on a planet or moon.</font> <br />(I am not a space exploration historian, please someone tell me if I'm wrong!) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>