Creating engry in space.

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theridane

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I've already presented the calculations in a number of previous posts, but what the heck, repetition is a mother of learning. Here goes.

Shaft power of a motor (any device producing torque, including turbines and windmills) is

P = 2 * pi * M * f

where M is the torque (in N*m) and f is the frequency of the spinning object (in Hz, or revolutions/s). According to this equation, a GM Vortec 6 liter engine, humming in a Hummer H2, running at peak-efficiency 4500 RPM and 502 N*m of torque outputs about 240 kW, which happens to exactly match the specs. So we're on track so far.

We have two unknowns that need to be found before we get to make any conclusions: the torque and the frequency.

The upper bound of the frequency will be dictated by the mechanical strength of our rig (because at some point the centripetal force will rip it to shreds). This is where we have to ballpark a little, because we don't have a CAD drawing of the mill at hand. You're saying that you want to have multiple smaller sail-like turbines, so let's say one will have a diameter of 20 meters (like the Ikaros) and have 8 triangular blades, looking something like this:

space-solar-sails.jpg


A little bit of trigonometry makes each blade an isosceles triangle with dimensions of 10, 10 and 8 meters and a height of 9 meters. Now let's assume the structure can withstand a pulling load of 100 kg (about 100× more than what the real sail can) - so we'll figure out when the centripetal force exceeds that. The center of gravity of such a triangle is about 6 meters from its tip - our mill's axis of rotation. Let's say it weighs only 1 kg - it's a real super material. The equation for centripetal force is:

F = m * r * omega²

where m is the mass, r is the radius and omega is the angular velocity in radians per second. Omega = 2 * pi * f, so we can modify the equation to

F = 4 * pi² * f² * m * r

and solve for frequency, since that's what we're after:

f = sqrt(F / (4 * pi² * m * r))

This equation says at which rotational frequency will the turbine disintegrate. Plugging in the values from the previous paragraph (F = 1000 N, m = 1 kg, r = 6 m), we end up with almost exactly 2 Hz. So the windmill will be able to barely withstand 2 revolutions per second.

The next unknown we need to find is the torque. According to this table, somewhere near Earth orbit the radiation pressure is little under 10 µPa (µN/m²). If we angle the blades at a 60° angle, exactly half of this pressure will contribute to our torque while still maintaining a sufficient surface area to capture sunlight. Each blade has a surface area of 37 m², but at a 60° angle the effective cross-section that's facing the sun in only 19 m². The torque is a product of force and a lever, in other words

M = F * d

plug in the pressures and the number of blades

M = A * p * d * 8

and for our numbers (A = 19 m², p = 10 µPa, d = 6 m) we get about 0.00912 N*m of torque. Going back to our shaft power:

P = 2 * pi * M * f

we get 114.61 mW. Not bad actually :) looks like my LED statement was exaggerated a little. Sorry for that.

Which means you'd need 872 of these to power a 100W light bulb. Keep in mind, however, that all of this neglects any losses and assumes the generator runs at 100% efficiency. So it is in fact far from reality. Also the parameters were guessed in such a way to provide this idea with the gratest chance possible, e.g. there's no way you could have a rigid blade capable of withstanding 100 kg of force weigh only 1 kg. And who knows how long, if ever, would it take for this turbine to even start spinning and reach the two revolutions per second (120 RPM). And so on.

For comparison, a similarly sized solar panel with a run-of-the-mill (pun intended) efficiency of 20% would give you an energy output of 1366 * 0.20 = 80.9 kW, over 700,000x times as much, without a chance for a mechanical failure.

Another good comparison figure of merit is power per unit of weight - a 20% efficient photovoltaic cell gives you around 300 W/kg (assuming it's the same one ISS uses, at 1 kg/m²), while your 100% efficient machine (just the blades, I'm completely neglecting the gennies and other infrastructure) would give you about 14 mW/kg.

And in money terms - on an Atlas V Heavy ($4,000/kg) you'd pay about $285,714 per watt lifted into space, while a solar panel would cost just $13.35 per watt. That's over 20,000-fold difference.

Hope this clears up a thing or two :)

ChangeLog:
corrected the "For comparison" paragraph
 
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Mordred

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I recall reading an article in discover magazine around 1 year back or so where NASA already found a way to beam power to Earth. Hopefully I'm correct on this if not I'll apoligize in advance. If I recall the details the gist of the Idea was to use solar power, generate that solar power to a laser beam, Beam that to another solar panel. I don't believe they ever did go further than the theory due again to the inefficiency of current solar panels vs cost in dollars.
 
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theridane

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There were studies using lasers and microwaves for beaming, but they all are inherently inefficient (lossy) and dangerous - a gigawatt-level powerplant beam is essentially a huge cutting laser. One error in navigation and/or malicious intentions and whoosh, there goes a city.
 
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undidly

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To theridane

Good post.
Lots of info there.
A few things are not quite right.
I know it is only an illustrators idea of a solar windmill but the triangular sails are connected to the hub by a narrow
and possibly thin join.The sail could be much wider where it joins to the hub and as thick as is needed at that end.

120 RPM. For that structure yes.
DYSON produce a vacuum cleaner with a motor that runs at 100,000 RPM.
120?.Can do better.

Long time to spin up?.
Only if you let the light do it all.
Make it strong,spin it up from a battery,then the turbine gives full power(can recharge the battery,for the next rotor).

Don't try to send the energy to Earth.Use the energy in space.

A strong and simple solar windmill would not be a disc but a cube operating as a vertical axis windmill.
Top and bottom faces any color.
Side faces half silver on one side (left ,right) and black on the other.
The light pushes the silvered side twice as hard as the black side so the cube spins.
A high strength steel cube can spin at 100,000 revs per second before it disintegrates.
Spin it up from a battery then slowly take out the collected solar energy for a million years.
 
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theridane

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Something's telling me that 'DYSON', whatever or whoever that is, is not making vacuum cleaners that are 20 meters or larger.

Centripetal force increases rapidly (faster than linearly) as you increase the diameter of a spinning object, because the radius and the mass distribution shifts. I'm not entirely sure if a 20-meter-ish steel cube spinning at 100,000 RPM would even hold together on a molecular level, i.e. it might be very well beyond steel's yield strength.

Plus a steel cube sounds kinda heavy. Even Atlas V Heavy would be able to lift a 1.5 meter cube at most. Ares V could do 2.75 m. It's just not viable commercially, or in any other way. But as a thought experiment it's fine :) have your turbine.
 
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undidly

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theridane":c50dd3t1 said:
Something's telling me that 'DYSON', whatever or whoever that is, is not making vacuum cleaners that are 20 meters or larger.

Centripetal force increases rapidly (faster than linearly) as you increase the diameter of a spinning object, because the radius and the mass distribution shifts. I'm not entirely sure if a 20-meter-ish steel cube spinning at 100,000 RPM would even hold together on a molecular level, i.e. it might be very well beyond steel's yield strength.

Plus a steel cube sounds kinda heavy. Even Atlas V Heavy would be able to lift a 1.5 meter cube at most. Ares V could do 2.75 m. It's just not viable commercially, or in any other way. But as a thought experiment it's fine :) have your turbine.

I forgot to say in my post that the cube would be 1 meter only.That can spin at 100,000 revs per second.
Unfortunately it weighs 8 tons. Better to carry up other things.
""It's just not viable commercially""
Yes you are right.
Perhaps build it up there from old abandoned rocket parts (already up there) or metal from asteroids.
Make it hollow,but then it is weaker.
Space factories are coming but not just now.
 
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theridane

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Yeah... I would think though that if a civilization has space-based factories, then it's already capable of making highly efficient solar cells right on the spot, regenerating them as they grow old by recycling the old ones. Or producing energy in a much, much more reliable way in reactors and what not.
 
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neilsox

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Re: Creating energy in space.

Lots of good points in this thread. I had not thought about a turbine powered by a fast moving, almost perfect vacuum. It does seem counter intuitive. http://www.spacesolarpower.wordpress.com has lots of optimistic, but good analysis about beaming space power to Earth. To me it seems marginal, even with technology advances, likely soon. 8 times less solar energy may be correct for average surface locations.
Dyson was (is?) a scientist who predicted that a very advanced civilization might build a sphere with a radius of about one AU around their star to capture more than half of the total energy output of the star. Variations on this thought experiment are discussed in other threads. Neil
 
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