Dark matter Extradimensional?

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Fallingstar1971

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1. How is it that dark matter can utilize the gravity force but not the others?
2. Outside of a black hole, are there any other examples in nature that can isolate and use only use one of the four forces?


Is the following possible?

Could dark matter be from outside the Universe, where you can get away with only manifesting through one force? Possibly from a dimension we cannot directly observe (a direction we cannot look) so like Mr. A Square, we are only observing an effect from a "slice" of this outer-dimensional (5 dimensional) matter? Our "observable slice" not being electromagnetic, like light, but solely gravitational?

As if Dark Matter can only manifest itself gravitationally, As if "gravity" is the only "common" force between where its from and where we are? So even though it could be reacting with the Universe in a multitude of ways, we are only capable of seeing it manifest as "gravity"?

Just a thought


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ramparts

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Fallingstar1971":pdgyoie6 said:
1. How is it that dark matter can utilize the gravity force but not the others?
Well, first of all we don't know that it doesn't interact with other forces, we just know that if it does, it only does so ery weakly, so weakly that we don't see signals of it. For example, if it had significant electromagnetic interactions, we'd see light from it, since light is associated with electromagnetism. One of the prime candidates for dark matter particles are WIMPs - weakly interacting massive particles - and as the name suggests, they also interact using the weak nuclear force. Problem is, the weak force is so weak that it's very hard to detect. However, there are vast underground detectors which look for dark matter using its weak interactions with atoms (and some have even claimed to find a signal, albeit a very small one). It's very similar to how we find neutrinos.

2. Outside of a black hole, are there any other examples in nature that can isolate and use only use one of the four forces?
Not that I can think of. And even black holes can in theory interact electromagnetically, it's just that they tend not to in realistic situations because any charged black hole will attract opposite charges and become neutral very quickly.

Bear in mind that any particle exerts some gravity.
 
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kelvinzero

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I was wondering why neutrinos were not often brought up as candidates.

Apparently a neutrino can interact using the weak nuclear force, but could pass through a light year of lead before being stopped!

posting.php?mode=reply&f=10&t=23355

Apparently it can only be a candidate for 'hot dark matter' which I think means it can only explain particles moving so fast they are not going to clump the way dark matter needs to in order to explain what we are observing.
 
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ramparts

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That's pretty much it; the cold dark matter paradigm, where the dark matter moves far below the speed of light, works beautifully to explain structure formation and all that. The hot dark matter paradigm, where the dark matter is in highly relativistic particles like neutrinos, does not. There are some who think that sterile neutrinos - yet undiscovered neutrinos which are hypothesized to be a lot more massive and therefore slower - are the dark matter, and neutralinos - the superpartner of the neutrino - is one of the leading candidates for it. Also, I'm pretty sure limits on the density of neutrinos means that there aren't enough to account for all of the dark matter anyway.
 
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Fallingstar1971

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OK, let me ask this.

If a object made of Dark matter had the same mass as the Earth and the two were located close to one another, say where the moon is now,would we feel the tidal effects of this unseeable object? It would seem to me that if this "stuff" can influence galaxies, some kind of measurable effect should happen. If the two collided would they gravitate twords one another until the two occupied the same space at the same time? I dont think they can merge, and gravity should bind the two together, would Earths mass mysteriously double?


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ramparts

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A "dark" moon would exert tidal forces on the Earth since tides are purely gravitational - and dark matter gravitates the same as anything else - but it's kind of a misleading question. Because it doesn't have the interactions (like the electromagnetic) which bind "normal" objects like the Earth together, a dark halo with the mass of the Earth that's gravitationally bound would be much larger than the mass of the Earth - and if there's a more compact, equal mass visible Earth nearby, that's sure to disrupt your dark matter cloud.
 
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captdude

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If gravity extends is influence to other dimensions maybe particles do the same. What if some particles or forces exist simultaneously within our 3-D space/time as well as other dimensions? I think of this as a "shadow effect" whereas the "dual space/time" particle manifests itself as a "shadow" in our 3-D space/time.
 
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Fallingstar1971

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ramparts":3mxgclao said:
A "dark" moon would exert tidal forces on the Earth since tides are purely gravitational - and dark matter gravitates the same as anything else - but it's kind of a misleading question. Because it doesn't have the interactions (like the electromagnetic) which bind "normal" objects like the Earth together, a dark halo with the mass of the Earth that's gravitationally bound would be much larger than the mass of the Earth - and if there's a more compact, equal mass visible Earth nearby, that's sure to disrupt your dark matter cloud.
Darn it....... I just said that dark matter only seems to use one force and here I am treating it like normal matter that uses all forces......

However, you raise an interesting point. I wonder, if Earth did have a dark matter halo, how could we tell? Would our instruments be capable of separating the mass of Earth with its surrounding invisible halo?

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ramparts

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Well there's almost certainly some dark matter clumped around the Earth, though not much. We are trying to detect it much the same way we do neutrinos, using big underground liquid detectors. The hope is that far enough underground, most other particles will be shielded out, and the weakly interacting particles (like dark matter) will interact with the liquid down there and make some signals, but even then only occassionally. There are a few experiments that are making headway....
 
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dryson

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I was reading earlier about sinusoidal wavelengths which the article stated: the sinusoidal wave in a non-uniform medium there is loss in signal. As the wave slows down, the wavelength gets shorter and the amplitude increases after a place of maximum response. The short wavelength is associated with a high loss and the wave dies out. But does the wave really die out?

The image that I saw which is linked below shows the wave propagating normally then all of sudden the wave "bunches" up. This can be seen by watching test cars in slow motion hit a brick wall at a certain speed where each speed that the car is accelerated into the wall at will cause the car to crumple differently. If we watched each ripple of energy at each variable speed that the car is impacted at, we can see the same affect that is present in the sinusoidal wavelength. It looks as though the sinusoidal wave is hitting something that bunches it's wavelength up and then becomes a flat line.

Perhaps the sinusoidal wave is absorbed by the dark matter and is compressed within the sub-quantum level of energy that when the wave comes across the dark matter it is crumpled up and then flows like and ocean would flow through a pea sized hole in a cup to other places in the Universe.

Non-Uniform Media

Whether this is true or not waits to be seen but one thing is certain the sinusoidal wave being affected in a non-uniform medium (dark matter?) which would be it's maximum place of response and cause the wave to bunch up.

So when we are looking for dark matter if we watch the wavelength and see any place of maximum response and the medium is not readily visible then the place of maximum response could be the wave passing through an area comprised of dark matter.

I was also looking at another correlation of sinusoidal wavelengths and came across a spring model. The model shows an anchor (the emitting source) of the sinusoidal wave and a unclamped spring-mass system (dark matter) around the equilibrium is a sine wave. So maybe dark matter is like the unclamped spring-mass system that the sinusoidal wave is attached to and when gravity affects the dark matter the sinusoidal wave is compressed and decompressed like the spring is.

Unclamped Spring Mass System
 
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MeteorWayne

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ramparts":3bcs1ony said:
Well there's almost certainly some dark matter clumped around the Earth, though not much. We are trying to detect it much the same way we do neutrinos, using big underground liquid detectors. The hope is that far enough underground, most other particles will be shielded out, and the weakly interacting particles (like dark matter) will interact with the liquid down there and make some signals, but even then only occassionally. There are a few experiments that are making headway....
I don't think that's right. So far, AFAIK, the clumping is on galactic sized scales...a piddly planet like ours is not enough to collect DM, or have been created by it.

Remember > 99.8% of the solar system is the sun, and most of what's left is Jupiter. We (earth) is an immeasurably small bit of fluff.
 
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ramparts

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lol well that's the beautiful thing about the term "some." It might mean "a completely insignificant amount" as long as that amount is greater than zero. Yes, the earth's dark matter halo should be really small, but also non-zero.
 
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MeteorWayne

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Sorry ramparts, just can't agree with you here. Since DM (whatever the heck it is) is affected only by, and only affects gravity, a tiny bit of fluff like the earth can have no affect on DM, nor be created by it. It would be like a pea changing the orbit of the earth.

If I'm wrong, feel free to show me how I am.

MW
 
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dryson

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If dark matter is only affected by gravity and a blackhole is the most extreme source of gravity that we have come across in the Universe wouldn't it be safe to say that the best place to look for dark matter would be near a blackhole?

Sorry ramparts, just can't agree with you here. Since DM (whatever the heck it is) is affected only by, and and only affects gravity , a tiny bit of fluff like the earth can have no affect on DM, nor be created by it. It would be like a pea changing the orbit of the earth. If I'm wrong, feel free to show me how I am. MW
If dark matter is only affected by gravity and is affected by gravity then wouldn't that make dark matter more energetically powerful than gravity as well as functioning at above the speed of light since we know that the gravity of wormhole traps light and won't let it escape, so in order for dark matter to affect gravity it would have to be traveling faster than the speed of light. What would make it more gravitational than gravity? Maybe this is how the atom is stretched when it is pulled into the blackhole. As the atom crosses the event horizon the singularity is pulling on one direction while parts of the atom's structure may be trapped in the darkmatter around the blackhole. Basically how the spring in the above post works. The atom is bounced back and forth between the two opposing forces until the atoms wavlengths go flat and then disappears into the singularity of the blackhole where it may reform or add mass to the singularity that would keep the blackhole alive like wood keeps a stove burning. if the stove is not keep fueled up and the fire goes out then there is no heat.

Or your statement is just to utter non-sense and should be moved to the unexplained.
 
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Fallingstar1971

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Hypothetically:

Unless Dark Matter IS gravity. Imagine that, the graviton staring us in the face this entire time.......LOL

Honestly, Im thinking once the forces are understood better, we will all be better off. If DM can isolate gravity, I wonder if there are other exotic forms of matter that can utilize just one force.

EM matter ? (Matter that only can react electromagnetically, like light)

Strong Matter ? (Matter that can only interact with the Strong Force. No examples come to mind)
Weak Matter ? (Matter that can only interact with the Weak Force. No examples come to mind)

Gravity Matter (DM) (Matter that can only interact with the gravitational force)

The normal everyday matter that we interact with uses them all.
But if DM is real, then should we not make concessions for the possibilities that these other exotic matters may exist?
How would these other "matters" manifest? I wonder how we could detect them? Strong and Weak forces are mostly observed on the atomic level. Even if we could detect them, measuring a property of an atom 13 billion lys away may be problematic.

So how can we build them? If we can create them, then it follows that nature can create them as well. How could we design "custom" matter with these properties?

Perhaps the LHC can provide some clues through their experiments.

These are some good, valid questions. No sarcasm, just the desire to understand these phenomena.
If this MUST go the way of the Unexplained, so be it. There are 2-3 forms of matter that are just speculation. But please note that this is a hypothesis and NOT theory. Much more data is required for me to elevate my idea to "theory" status.

The problem, is that I dont have the faintest idea as to where to start.

O well,

TTFN

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ramparts

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MeteorWayne":1voedxgi said:
Sorry ramparts, just can't agree with you here. Since DM (whatever the heck it is) is affected only by, and only affects gravity, a tiny bit of fluff like the earth can have no affect on DM, nor be created by it. It would be like a pea changing the orbit of the earth.

If I'm wrong, feel free to show me how I am.

MW
Well, in the neighborhood of the Earth, the dominant gravitational body is the Earth. So any dark matter which happens to be streaming by could be caught up. Think of it as a statistical argument: you're more likely to find DM around some massive body, even the Earth, then in a similar patch of empty space.

If I recall correctly, by the way, dark matter-only computer simulations show that dark matter does clump (naturally, without any help from normal matter) on Earth-mass scales.
 
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dryson

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MeteorWayne stated : is affected only by, and and only affects gravity If this proves to be correct then do you know what we will have? Anti-Gravity with one field (objects field) repelling off of another field (planetary field) to allow an object such as a cube to be elevated without having to using magnetized rails to create the repulsion field. Just think of the new engines that would be designed based on using a forced interaction of a field of dark matter against an area of space where gravity is present.

The first place that we should look to study dark matter is to take the process of how a sun collapses and the effects of how iron is compressed into a singularity and the process that allows the iron atoms to create such an intense gravitational field of pull to affect a light photon traveling at C.

Another place to look could be the the outer regions of a black hole for any variances in where the gravity emitted by the black hole would be different. What I mean is if we overlay how the Van Allen Belt is affected upon by the solar winds.

The Van Allen radiation belt is a torus of energetic charged particles (plasma) around Earth, which is held in place by Earth's magnetic field. This field is not uniformly distributed around the Earth. On the sunward side, it is compressed because of the solar wind, while on the other side it is elongated to around three earth radii. This creates a cavity called the Chapman Ferraro Cavity, in which the Van Allen radiation belt resides. It is split into two distinct belts, with energetic electrons forming the outer belt and a combination of protons and electrons creating the inner belt. In addition, the belts contain lesser amounts of other nuclei, such as alpha particles. The Van Allen belts are closely related to the polar aurora where particles strike the upper atmosphere and fluoresce.
So if we look for signs of instability around a black holes outer regions this could be the dark matter being affected upon by the gravity of the black hole in the same manner that the solar winds affect the Van Allen Belt when it is facing towards the sun. In the case of the Van Allen Belt the opposite bulges to three earth radii, so would this mean that the Van Allen Belt is pushing possible dark matter through the Earth to the other side of the Earth that causes the Belt to bulge in the manner it does? I thought that radiation would not affect each other in such a way since both would be wavelengths. Perhaps dark matter is created between the interaction of the solar winds and the charged particles surrounding the Van Allen Belt. Since iron atoms are the cause of the Sun's collapse we could say that even though this wouldn't cause a sun to collapse we could speculate however that there might micro black holes inside of the sun on the quantum scale that would release the iron atoms gravity inside of the sun. When this occurs other atoms in the sun are pulled to the micro-black hole but since there are not enough iron atoms present to create a black hole the atoms are compressed into other atoms that release the stored energy potential of the compression in the form of a solar wind that then races towards the Earth at light speed. The solar winds may have micro-black hole radiation or micro-black hole wavelengths that travel with the solar wind that then presses against the Van Allen Belt. Also gravity has to be a faster velocity than light speed. If not then when the particles in the solar wind impact the particles in the Van Allen Belt surrounding the Earth the gravity of the Earth would not be able to keep the Van Allen Belt around the Earth and would pretty blow it away into space.
 
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captdude

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(Could) Dark matter (Be) Extradimensional?
by Fallingstar1971 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:30 am

I find myself asking this same question. The world, galaxy, universe has continued to grow in size for as long as ever more discerning instrumentation has gleaned more and more information about reality. So is it really that far a stretch to suspect there are more dimensions than the four we study in school? (string theorists aside)
 
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