Does the shuttle ever fly with three trained pilots?

[willpittenger]

Sorry. Please read YF-22 "Lightning II". That article disagrees with you. The source is F-22 Timeline. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Is now? Or was for STS-3? Some aircraft have changed over the years. Going from conventional controls to fly-by-wire is easier than the reverse which would require running control lines. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I should note that Air France Flight 296 was similar although the cause is disputed it. Officially, the pilot made a simple mistake and flew too low. He was sentenced to prison for that. However, the plane was an early Airbus 320, one of the first commercial aircraft with fly-by-wire. Boeing took a more conservative pilot oriented approach and made sure the pilot's instructions overrode the computer. Airbus did not bother. The pilot claimed the computer did not respond to commands. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[jschaef5]

Theres a lot of classic PIO's like the F-8 digital fly by wire plane from NASA: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Movie/F-8DFBW/HTML/EM-0044-01.html<br /><br /><br />From your link:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation<br /><br />I've always heard it referred to as this and still do today when people talk about PIO.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

Aside from the computer and pilot getting into an argument, Pilot <i>Induced</i> Oscillation is possible regardless of whether the connection between the controls and the elevators, etc is mechanical or not.

 

[jimfromnsf]

shuttle was always FBW

 

[drwayne]

I am actually quite good at having my control inputs be of a phase that induces oscillations - in a variety of simulators, video games etc.<br /><br />It's called being a total klutz.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[windnwar]

As more modern fighter jets have progressed to the point that without the computer, the aircraft is inherently to unstable to fly without the computer assistance I think will will see more instances of PIO that involve computer code being partly or completely to blame, though I think these instances will be primarily only seen in the test flight phase of the new aircraft, though they will get better at it very quickly. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font size="2" color="#0000ff">""Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein"</font></p> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Aside from the computer and pilot getting into an argument, Pilot <i>Induced</i> Oscillation is possible regardless of whether the connection between the controls and the elevators, etc is mechanical or not.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />I never said otherwise. However, I start to prefer the term Pilot Involved Oscillation when there is an argument between the computer and the pilot. In both the case of the YF-22 crash and the Airbus crash I mentioned, the computer clearly was fighting the pilot. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Going from conventional controls to fly-by-wire is easier than the reverse which would require running control lines.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Doing the mod in reverse would be more difficult since control cables would have to replace the wires!<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />I think I said that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

I guess I had a case of the 'pilot involved' type once coming down from a wave flight in a Pilatus B4. The stick is kind of long in that glider. So my left hand is holding the spoiler handle all the way back and my right hand on the stick. From 11,000 down to 4,000 everything was smooth. Then I am under the cloud deck heading for the airport. As is typical in wave conditions, the air underneath is very turbulent. The bouncing around makes my right shoulder and arm move enough that I unintentionally impart pitch inputs to the stick. Porpoising ensues. To damp the oscillations I put both hands on the stick and brace my elbows on my knees. Oscillations stop, but now I'm not coming down any more because I had to let go of the spoiler handle. And it was rough - I wanted to get down. So I alternated periods of descending but oscillating flight with periods of smooth(er) level flight while I caught my breath.<br /><br />So my body was coupling the turbulence to the stick, thus causing the oscillations; I was "involved". And the straps on the 5-point harness wouldn't go any tighter.

 

[drwayne]

Judging by how well I fly in simulators - I am probably glad I didn't either.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

I was just renting it. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> The B4 handles like a sports car. Very responsive controls, especially in pitch. With the long stick that is what made the "PIO" so easy to get into.<br /><br />Goes reasonably fast with the retractable wheel. That flight was the one where, after takeoff, I realized I had left my oxygen mask in the car. So I had to turn back at 11,000 feet, going up at 1000fpm. Boy was that painful.

 

[lampblack]

<font color="yellow">That flight was the one where, after takeoff, I realized I had left my oxygen mask in the car. </font><br /><br />Whoops!! <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font color="#0000ff"><strong>Just tell the truth and let the chips fall...</strong></font> </div>