Question Does Time exist and if not what really is Time Dilation?

[IG2007]

IG, "IMHO Time exists for us, as an intrinsic part of our sensory perception systems."


How would you complete it?

Cat

And for other particles, as a dimension.

 

[Catastrophe]

IG, OK, I'm OK with that. Cat

 

[Atlan0001]

Random thoughts:

Were the muons under observation in a closed system (such as the Large Hadron Collider) or an open system (such as outer space)? Closed system or open system makes all the difference in the world.
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There's no such thing as the straight arrow of time and it never should be drawn in its dimension (1-dimensionality) as anything but a curve. I've illustrated that curvature in universe with the traveler traveling faster and faster into time-verse's observable curvature. The time-verse curvature ahead of the traveler the universe traveler is traveling into (future) being counter-clock-wise to the time-verse curvature behind the traveler the universe traveler is traveling into (past). A vortex. The traveler can never travel faster and faster into a straight line of travel if the traveler is intent upon any specific destination. If the traveler knows where the destination is in the unobservable universe, not in the curve, the traveler can shortcut the time-verse curvature, skipping the observable universe, which is pretty much the same thing as wormholing, or warping, space and time.
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Particle-wave duality is essentially 3d-2d duality. As Einstein said, "It takes three dimensions to describe a point". Not so many to describe a wave. A traveling light-wave hologram, inexorably recessionary in the time-verse even as it is just as inexorably processionary in the space-verse, is a single-sided 2-dimensional frame-front. If it had even one more side to it, it would fry the universe. And since it has no back side, and non-front / non-back, sides are nothing but 1-dimensional strings, it can't be observed, much less caught, from the rear. It is more or less an open corridor from the rear in which any one passing through would have to look back to observe the time receding into the past behind. Of course I'm talking open system travel, not a particle existing in a closed system such as the LHC, or inside the traveler's ship's drive.
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There are observers (real time), then there are imaginary observers (relative time). No one, including no physicist, I've read adds time to an observation concerning any clock to make up for the slowness of the speed of light. Synchronized clocks ten light seconds apart will be ten seconds off time regarding each other. In other words, two imaginary time clocks (relative time clocks) will exist additional to the two real time synchronized clocks. Velocity difference, momentum difference, alluding to the principle of certainty, is equivalent to difference in distance between clocks. There is geometric progression, or geometric regression, when dealing with light and the speed of light. What you observe is not what is on the other end. The math, and observations supposedly backing up the math, says that is not a true statement. It says the observer is always observing the physical entity under observer, which is a lie. There is an absolute difference between real time entity and relative time entity, and to some degree that difference between the real time and relative time can be calculated in the difference between real time clock and light's imaginary clock in hologram. If supposedly synchronized and a ten second difference is observed, ten seconds has passed unobserved for the real time clock, the real time entity, in the unobserved real time universe. Even the sun is eight minutes out front (time-verse-wise in the future) of its observation from Earth. Anything traveling toward the sun from Earth has to make up that eight minute difference, additional to its travel time (that eight minute difference in real [[simultaneous]] time for sun and Earth is one real reason nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, since it is never in any direction of time's verse but past > future). Is any of this in the math or in the pages from physicists? Not that I've read anywhere at all. And I've done a lot of reading regarding light and time and relativity. It means there is a big problem with relativity when physicists describe exactly the same physics for the real time traveler beyond the light as for the traveler observed in light's hologram (the only traveler (the imaginary traveler) any observer will ever observe).

 

[Atlan0001]

You have a space-time coordinate 0-point in space. From six directions of a sphere you have light intersecting this coordinate point crossroad (just one of infinities of infinities of such coordinate 0-point crossroads in an infinity of paralleling universes broad and deep in the Universe (U) (Multiverse). Six holographic corridors (timed-verse streams of single-sided 2-dimensional frame holograms) passing through the one point crossroad going in six different directions all at once. Not a clash. Not a bit of interference, as if nothing at all is happening at the crossroad. As if nothing whatsoever is there at the crossroad despite the big crunch of holograms into and through this one crossroad of infinities of such. Again, as if nothing whatsoever is happening at the crossroad. As if nothing whatsoever is at the crossroad. Just a hole in space, a void, a vacuum.

But let something in any way different come to the crossroad, it interferes with what was non-interference.

At every uninterfered-with crossroad point light fronts pass right through opposed light fronts without a single bit of interference, as if the exactly opposed stream of oncoming light front holography wasn't / isn't even there. As if the opposed light front it is streaming straight into and through, crossing at every point (a stream streaming right back into it, too) was / is on some other plane of a hyperplane space, or is existing in some other point of time, regardless of what seems to be the case (a case of same space, same time). A crunch, a friction, in which there is no crunch or friction... massless and seemingly energyless void until otherwise interfered with (only then, in that interference, revealing any existence of mass, energy, space, and time).

 

[Lariliss]

Time exists in observations, equations, theories and laws. It is a part of apparatus that we currently have working best for the Universe understanding.
Time dilation is determined by an observer and perceived as a human.

 

[Dumas]

In a hypershape isn't the 4th dimension usually the scaling of the hypershape. Might that make the 4th dimension of spacetime its expansion?

 

[Atlan0001]

In a hypershape isn't the 4th dimension usually the scaling of the hypershape. Might that make the 4th dimension of spacetime its expansion?

No! It completely drops the space dimensions out of the physic of spacetime (thus making space, all space, an absolute, aka absolutely "rigid" or "rigid body", dimensionality) and in space's place stretches out the time dimension elastically. It singularizes, or merges, observation with reality on the other end of what is observed by the preferred observer, thus, in fact, totally ignoring, throwing out, the "slowness" of the constant of the speed of light over any distance, particularly SPOL's "slowness" to cover all increasing distances between spatial points. It transfers "slowness," "slowing" (but not the "equal but opposite" time physic of speeding up where and when oncoming . . . thus a net of zero) to time itself. There are no adjustments to the magnitude of space or direction of the real-time object (which, in reality, will be no longer under the observation of the observer . . . no longer "relative" to the observer (will be divided in space and time -- into two or more -- away from the "relative" subjective object (thus its time, its clock) under observation by the observer).

For example: Without actually shrinking the Earth in its 'space' and 'time', we have shrunk the third dimensional 'spacetime' Earth by shrinking its distances between all points and for all our purposes . . . like an unborn child both stretching out a womb and yet shrinking it in every way there is by growing in every way toward an expansionist birth from it, or destruction in the stone-rigid Utopia within its enclosed closed system alone. What was once effectively infinite to us is now becoming finite to us . . . to an extreme of finite. Certain people, too many people, still believe in some kind of "time dilation" (totally without -- totally short -- any 'space dilation') magically keeping and saving us in this implosively shrinking warp-bubble "spacetime" womb of Earth.

 

[Dumas]

Apologies Atlan, I don't understand. Is this your own hypothesis, or is there any material you can point me to, to get a better grasp on what you are saying?

 

[Atlan0001]

Apologies Atlan, I don't understand. Is this your own hypothesis, or is there any material you can point me to, to get a better grasp on what you are saying?

Then I am sorry, too. If you aren't understanding the words and meaning of "time dilation" (not "spacetime" dilation, but "time" dilation) (not "space" dilation, but "time" dilation), then there is nothing I can do to explain it to you. It is in the very word "time" in "time dilation" that it loses all connection with space and spacetime. SPACE-TIME implies a unity that does not exist regarding "time dilation." It makes time elastic (there being no division whatsoever between observed time and real time in it, thus a lazy naked singularity physic of the two) and keeps space a "rigid body" of rigid points (as Einstein described) entity.

Spacetime is a third dimensional entity to the two dimensionalities of space and time. And it was supposed to denote the elasticity of spacetime as I described it above concerning the shrinkage of the Earth.

 

[Dumas]

I understand the words, just not the word salad they are contained within.

like an unborn child both stretching out a womb and yet shrinking it in every way there is by growing in every way toward an expansionist birth from it, or destruction in the stone-rigid Utopia within its enclosed closed system alone. What was once effectively infinite to us is now becoming finite to us . . . to an extreme of finite. Certain people, too many people, still believe in some kind of "time dilation" (totally without -- totally short -- any 'space dilation') magically keeping and saving us in this implosively shrinking warp-bubble "spacetime" womb of Earth.

You sound like a ghostwriter for the Bogdanoffs.

 

[Atlan0001]

I understand the words, just not the word salad they are contained within.



You sound like a ghostwriter for the Bogdanoffs.

I don't write in "math salads" as a lot of failed professional theorist mediocrities ("mediocre minds" as Einstein termed them) do. And I looked up the Bogdanoff twins. They were called quacks spouting quackery.

Since you obviously didn't understand me, you turned to attacking me personally!

 

[ASTROSTONER]

IMO
There is only a universal now and a variable rate at which information can propagate.

This rate of propagation is what measure and call time.

 

[Atlan0001]

IMO
There is only a universal now and a variable rate at which information can propagate.

This rate of propagation is what measure and call time.

Information only propagates locally. Universally, in the infinities in and beyond the Horizon, it is never created or destroyed (never was, never will be).

As Albert Einstein so famously put it, "God does not play dice with the universe!"

As Stephen Hawking said in his equally famous comeback later, "Oh, yes He does play dice with the universe! but they are loaded!"

 

[ASTROSTONER]

Information only propagates locally. Universally, in the infinities in and beyond the Horizon, it is never created or destroyed (never was, never will be).

that's quite the assumption.
could be that the event horizon is just a temporal illusion as we ride into a gravity tsunami wave of sorts.
in half a wavelength the expansion could reverse.

 

[Atlan0001]

that's quite the assumption.
could be that the event horizon is just a temporal illusion as we ride into a gravity tsunami wave of sorts.
in half a wavelength the expansion could reverse.

Look up in Wikipedia the figurative, illustrative, construct of the "Klein bottle," it's latitudinal and longitudinal flow lines. There is plenty there in that Wikipedia article to contemplate and apply elsewhere in physics and cosmology.

 

[Atlan0001]

Nothing confirms me more in what I've written about Relativity throwing Reality at a distance in the trash than such articles as this article below from 'The Guardian'!

12ft

Is there any mention at all of Reality existing at a distance of about 14 billion times 9.656 trillion kilometers from Earth observers?! There is no mention! Nor is there a single mention of any possibility of on-the-spot space existing there 14-billion years in the future of 14-billion light years observed from here. Not a single mention of what I have described or diagrammed one way or another about light time stretching out with distance due to the slowness of the constant of the speed of light at any ever-increasing distance, but not the real-time for the real-time space objects at distance.

A triangle forms between two real-time points (real-time keeping clocks) and one relative time point (light not keeping up. LIGHT TIME stretching out backward into light time history relative time clock). The triangle expands between the three points with distance existing and/or acquiring between the real-time points. The triangle of three points shrinks, contracts, with all contraction between the two real-time points.

They did not divide the light time history from the Reality at a distance. Some of us have insisted over and over again, that the map is not the territory it maps. But, again and again, and again, an idiocy of Relativity has openly, brazenly, insistently, claimed, "Oh, yes, the map most certainly is absolutely the territory it maps!" The physicists interviewed for the article prove it! Brian Greene in a video in another thread proved the merger of the map of the territory and the territory mapped as being one single Reality by physicists! Sheez, when will they ever learn that the stretched, the stretching, map is never the territory mapped!!!!

Relative time in the light picture separating ever farther from Reality at a distance, and accumulating periphery and picture oncoming, dilated! Real time at a distance never dilated!

 

[Atlan0001]

There is a vast difference between observed subjective relative time and unobservable objective real time. 'Relativity' tells us in no uncertain terms that no such difference exists! That an unobservable objective real time does NOT exist! That is absolutely stated, absolutely proven, as the meaning of "time dilation!"

Ask any to explain the difference to you! They will bluster! they will go mute! they cannot answer because they will not find a single bit of difference regarding "time dilation." To them, the two are one and one only . . . one and the same! The 'Guardian' article in #41 above clearly points that out. Very clearly!

 

[Gibsense]

Thank you for your response. You raise an interesting question and one to which I can only defer to Heisenberg's principal of uncertainty!

In the development of any new scientific theory it is of course helpful to receive as much objective feedback as possible from all corners of the scientific community. I would be interested to hear your views on the actual theory and will do my best to answer any questions you may have.

Objective feedback. An alternative way to consider Special Relativity is to consider time concerning the part it plays in a Spacetime Interval.
I have 'painted' a diagram in a post elsewhere recently but essentially the time and distance (speed) regulate each other: more time less distance- obvious really. But the relationship is regulated by a circle and its radius reading off against a vertical diameter (time say) and a horizontal diameter (distance). If you are interested I can send you a ' jif' by email to illustrate how simple this SR is.
I forgot to say you can read off the dilation of both time and distance caused by speed ie. the reduced time and the reduced distance with the help of Pythagoras. Works a treat. May help!