Does Titan Have a Sea of Methane or Not?

[johnharlin]

Why are there two different interpretations coming out about the liquid methane of Titan. In the photos I looked at I could clearly see a sea with a beach and some waves. I have heard some scientists say the same thing. Yet there are others who are saying that the surface and river beds are completely dry. Which is it? Does Titan have rivers and a a sea of methane like it appears in the photo or not?

 

[alokmohan]

The pictres are just for public.SCIENTISTS ANALYZE THE PICTURE AND TELL US THAT PROBABLY THERE IS VAST SOLID LAND AND OCCASIONAL LAKES.SEE ESA PORTAL OR SPACEREF.COM

 

[najab]

Remember there's the scale factor. What looks like a sea might only be a lake.

 

[alokmohan]

astrobiology magazine is giving details.I read it daily .You also read it daily and discuss.

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Why are there two different interpretations coming out about the liquid methane of Titan.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Because nobody's totally sure. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Okay, that was the smart-alec answer. The real answer is that the scientists are talking about two different things. There isn't any surface liquid visible in the images taken on the actual surface of Titan. However, there's strong evidence that there's recently been liquid there, not only in the erosion patterns around those ice pebbles, but also in the apparent nature of what it landed on -- the surface behaved like sand that's saturated with water, except that this being Titan, it's actually saturated with liquid hydrocarbons. (Based on the methane "steam" that rose up around Huygens, it's evidently methane, putting to rest some of the debate over whether it would be ethane or methane that would dominate.) So there was liquid there recently, but it has soaked into the soil, and/or run away downstream. It's very much like a riverbed in Arizona, not long after the wet season has ended and the water has all sunk into the soil or flowed away downstream.<br /><br />Meanwhile, there are these pictures of what looks very much like a lake, with rivers flowing into it, and islands poking above the surface. There seems to still be debate over whether there is standing liquid there, or whether it recently sankinto the soil as happened at the Hugyens landing site. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

The feeling I have from listening to the presentations on Huygens results so far:<br /><br />Dark "soot" uniformly falls onto the surface of Titan.<br />Methane rain falls, washes the soot from highlands via a system of streams and rivers into low basins. The result is light, "clean", highlands and dark drainage system and basins. The highlands aren't that high -- nothing over 100 meters seen so far in radar or Huygens images (but that's just 1 percent of the surface). The dark areas are where liquid methane washes the organic "soot" and exists as liquid lakes and seas, but they may actuall be dry, or moist, most of the time, awaiting the next rains. The intensity, extent, and frequency of the rains is yet to be determined. <br /><br />I haven't mentioned the cryovocanism. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

The soot is, to me, one of the more interesting notions. If the dark "seas" are covered in a thin soot, that would be about as interesting as liquid methane, especially considering the possible processes that could have put it there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[vladius]

SHHH!!! if you spread the word that Titan is chock full of base Hydrocarbons, the oil companies will get big ideas of harvesting a lake or two from titan to fuel our energy needs =D

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">"the intensity, extent & frequency of the rains ( on Titan) are yet to be determined." <br />So is their existence. We need good confirmation of all of this.</font><br /><br />Just curious - what mechanisms other than some form of "rain" could cause the distinct channeling that's been observed?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

The fact that there were "puffs" of methane outgassed from the surface as the warm rover settled onto it means that there was liquid methane at or just under the surface. Any other cause would be a hell of a coincidince. What saturates the surface can form pools, can run downhill, can form streams, and can form lakes. Given that there are what appear to be streams and lakes, it seems likely that these are indeed what they appear to be. In fact, any other explanation pushes credibility in the face of the simple fact of the "puffs". <br /><br />Using a terrestrial analog, if you landed in a mud flat and hd images of a streambeds and a lake nearby, would it be reasonable to invent some other mechanism not invoking the liquid you have at hand as being the cause? <br /><br />Alas, Titan isn't the earth, and the streams and lakes on earth might actuall be lava flows. So, no proof. It just seems likely they are what they appear to be. But you can get lucky in bad ways too!<br />

 

[rogers_buck]

>> Sending out a rocket to get the low quality fuels such as are at Titan and bringing them back to the earth, would be like shipping coal to Newcastle. The cost would be far greater than its value. Not even Helium3 would be valuable enough to ship from Titan to the earth to repay the huge energy cost alone. <br /><br /><br />Shhh. If you want Bush et al to fund a future mission, just say "Yup, there's oil on Titan."

 

[najab]

><i>Sending out a rocket to get the low quality fuels such as are at Titan and bringing them back to the earth....</i><p>Steve, I think it was a joke.</p>

 

[munkin]

Steve,<br /><br />Interestingly, the argon isotopes in Titan's atmosphere show that the core of Titan might still be radioactive (hot) and be made up of potassium. <br /><br />I do believe that the heat generated from the core may be driving cryovolcanism (liquid water and ammonia) flows. This might also explain the energy behind the methane *springs* that ESA mentions in thier January 21st press release.<br /><br />Titan's surface is not totally frozen. The surface of Titan is well within the range of methane existing in liquid form. Methane exists in liquid form when the temperature exceeds - 182C. Huygens reported a *surface* temperature of -180C. Titan is not a completely frozen world as you put it.<br /><br />The dark hydrocarbons are probably the *tholins* that were theorized to precipitate in the atmosphere of Titan. They are possibly being washed into the rivers, mud flats and possibly seas of Titan.<br /><br />We have only mapped and studied 1% of the surface of Titan - I look forward to more Cassini flyby's and further results from the Huygens probe.<br />

 

[rogers_buck]

You have some pretty good tidal forces to heat the interior as well. So far, I have only heard tidal heating as being the source of the upheavels - but that was a sample of one press conference... <br /><br />I notice that the PI on the Hoygens gass analysis mentioned that they had a theory on how Titan could have assembled itself sans the fossil Argon issotopes. Sounded interesting.

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"The dark hydrocarbons are probably the *tholins* that were theorized to precipitate in the atmosphere of Titan." -- munkin</font><br /><br />One thing I was hoping for from the Huygens mission, but haven't seen so far, is a descrption of exactly what complex hydrocarbons are present. All the talk so far has been of methane, nitrogen, argon. I wonder if data was obtained that will allow a description of some of the more complex molecules present. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>