Question Earth Moon Origin

[Catastrophe]

Billslugg, some of these might interest you:

gaia collision video - Bing

Mit der intelligenten Bing-Suche können Sie die gewünschten Informationen schneller und einfacher finden und dabei Punkte sammeln.

www.bing.com

There is another somewhere I have mislaid. It shows diagrams at intervals like 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour, 4 hours . . . . . . something like that.

Cat

 

[billslugg]

The galaxy video is mesmerizing. The interaction really tore the tiny galaxy to shreds. First it makes it a needle then a cloud. Very interesting.

 

[Catastrophe]

If you put balloons on the surface of the pool water and pull the plug they will simply gather together in the center. If they pool is big enough, say hundreds of miles across, and is not located on the equator, then the Coriolis force will result in the bunch of balloons rotating. The amount of angular momentum of any such gathering is proportional to its area. A small knot within a large assemblage will have only a tiny angular momentum, not sufficient to explain the Moon's. This pretty much rules out coformation from dust knots. It leaves collision or capture. Collision is far more likely as there are many spots on Earth where a good hit would make a Moon. There are not a lot of spots the Moon and a third body could do a dance resulting in the capture of the Moon. Collision requires two bodies, somewhat rare. Capture requires three bodies, extremely rare. Also, the Moon crust and Earth crust are identical. This rules out capture. Collision is the only one that can account for all the data. There are still some nagging details they can't figure out.

Billslugg

There are still some nagging details they can't figure out.

Are you now happy with the 1%/13% "problem"?

Cat

 

[Inmymind]

I had not seen that one, it is really detailed. It gives two bodies, one of which falls back to Earth, the other stays out there to become the Moon. What is very evident is that the outcome is extremely dependent on the offset between the two bodies. This means that the impact scenario is flexible, can account for most any observation today simply by changing where it hit.
I would like to see a similar movie showing how an accretion scenario might work out.

"I would like to see a similar movie showing how an accretion scenario might work out"

Me too, but I wonder how many movies could be modelled to fit the "facts" in any current scenario.
I am hopeful that as more data comes in more refined modelling will emerge.

 

[billslugg]

All you need to do is show one plausible way of forming the Moon by impact to keep the impact theory alive.

 

[Inmymind]

All you need to do is show one plausible way of forming the Moon by impact to keep the impact theory alive.

Science will move in the direction of more accurate reflection

 

[Harry Costas]

When the solar system formed from our Sun, releasing its solar envelope or going through a Nebulae or a combination.

The resultant effect is CHAOS. From Chaos, objects that did not dance together collided with each other or the Sun.

The Objects that stayed together had uniform orbital motion.

The rocks between Mars and Jupiter form a uniform ring, suggesting that our Sun's Core formed dipolar vector fields forming an hourglass image expelling matter from our Sun into the Solar System.
The inner planets have Iron core properties the outer regions form ice objects.
Sun's Gravity held back the heavier objects.

Well, the evidence for any theory has not come to nest.
The cows will come home one day.
The chickens have not laid their eggs.

 

[Harry Costas]

Oring of moon??

"". The identical nucleosynthetic (O, Cr, Ti) and radiogenic (W) isotope compositions of the lunar and terrestrial mantles, strongly suggest the two bodies were made from the same material, rather than from an Earth-like impactor. Rb-Sr in FANs and Lu-Hf and Pb-Pb zircon ages point Moon formation close to ∼4500 Ma. Taken together, there is no unambiguous geochemical or isotopic evidence for the role of an impactor in the formation of the Moon, implying perfect equilibration between the proto-Earth and Moon-forming material or alternative scenarios for its genesis.""

[2408.16840] Composition, Structure and Origin of the Moon

 

[Harry Costas]

Step by step we are understanding the evolution of our Solar System.
Baby Steps

[Submitted on 23 Apr 2024]

The Solar System: structural overview, origins and evolution​

Sean N. Raymond

Understanding the origin and long-term evolution of the Solar System is a fundamental goal of planetary science and astrophysics. This chapter describes our current understanding of the key processes that shaped our planetary system, informed by empirical data such as meteorite measurements, observations of planet-forming disks around other stars, and exoplanets, and nourished by theoretical modeling and laboratory experiments. The processes at play range in size from microns to gas giants, and mostly took place within the gaseous planet-forming disk through the growth of mountain-sized planetesimals and Moon- to Mars-sized planetary embryos. A fundamental shift in our understanding came when it was realized (thanks to advances in exoplanet science) that the giant planets' orbits likely underwent large radial shifts during their early evolution, through gas- or planetesimal-driven migration and dynamical instability. The characteristics of the rocky planets (including Earth) were forged during this early dynamic phase. Our Solar System is currently middle-aged, and we can use astrophysical tools to forecast its demise in the distant future.

 

[Harry Costas]

Origin of the moon.

[Submitted on 29 Aug 2024]

Composition, Structure and Origin of the Moon​

Paolo A. Sossi, Miki Nakajima, Amir Khan

Here we critically examine the geophysical and geochemical properties of the Moon in order to identify the extent to which dynamical scenarios satisfy these observations. New joint inversions of existing lunar geophysical data (mean mass, moment of inertia, and tidal response) assuming a laterally- and vertically homogeneous lunar mantle show that, in all cases, a core with a radius of 300±20 km (∼0.8 to 1.5 % the mass of the Moon) is required. However, an Earth-like Mg# (0.89) in the lunar mantle results in core densities (7800±100 kg/m3) consistent with that of Fe-Ni alloy, whereas FeO-rich compositions (Mg# = 0.80--0.84) require lower densities (6100±800 kg/m3). Geochemically, we use new data on mare basalts to reassess the bulk composition of the Moon for 70 elements, and show that the lunar core likely formed near 5 GPa, 2100 K and ∼1 log unit below the iron-wüstite buffer. Moreover, the Moon is depleted relative to the Earth's mantle in elements with volatilities higher than that of Li, with this volatile loss likely having occurred at low temperatures (1400±100 K), consistent with mass-dependent stable isotope fractionation of moderately volatile elements (e.g., Zn, K, Rb). The identical nucleosynthetic (O, Cr, Ti) and radiogenic (W) isotope compositions of the lunar and terrestrial mantles, strongly suggest the two bodies were made from the same material, rather than from an Earth-like impactor. Rb-Sr in FANs and Lu-Hf and Pb-Pb zircon ages point Moon formation close to ∼4500 Ma. Taken together, there is no unambiguous geochemical or isotopic evidence for the role of an impactor in the formation of the Moon, implying perfect equilibration between the proto-Earth and Moon-forming material or alternative scenarios for its genesis.

 

[Adel]

The difference between the two sides of the moon indicates that a great event occurred, the abundance of impact craters outside the lunar seas and the lack of them in the lunar seas, and also the presence of long mountain ranges at the edges of the lunar seas. It indicates that these lunar seas are the result of the near side of the moon being exposed to a giant collision from a single body at the same time, which resulted in the formation of mountain ranges at the edges of the lunar seas and the presence of many craters outside the lunar seas. This is a natural result of the collision of celestial bodies the size of the Earth and the Moon, and this is the scientific result that I reached through the Moon Map Theory.

 

[Adel]

The moon is the one that collided with the Earth, and there is no other planet. This collision resulted in the existence of the lunar seas and the continents of the Earth. I hope you take a look at the missing near-moon crust topic.

 

[Adel]

The reason for the presence of long mountain ranges on the edges of the lunar seas from all directions and the abundance of impact craters outside the lunar seas and their scarcity inside the lunar seas is that these lunar seas are the result of the exposure of the near side of the moon. The collision of one body at the same time, which is the planet Earth, resulted in the existence of the lunar seas and the continents of the Earth. This collision also resulted in the existence of water and life on Earth. This is the scientific result that I have reached.

 

[Harry Costas]

You are assuming that the Earth and the Moon collided.

Where is the evidence?

 

[Harry Costas]

In my opinion, the Moon and Earth originated from the same material, allowing for uniform motion. Material that did not have uniform motion collided with either the Moon or Earth.

[Submitted on 2 Dec 2024]

Hydrodynamical simulations of proto-Moon degassing​

Gustavo Madeira, Leandro Esteves, Sebastien Charnoz, Elena Lega, Frederic Moynier

Similarities in the non-mass dependent isotopic composition of refractory elements with the bulk silicate Earth suggest that both the Earth and the Moon formed from the same material reservoir. On the other hand, the Moon's volatile depletion and isotopic composition of moderately volatile elements points to a global devolatilization processes, most likely during a magma ocean phase of the Moon. Here, we investigate the devolatilisation of the molten Moon due to a tidally-assisted hydrodynamic escape with a focus on the dynamics of the evaporated gas. Unlike the 1D steady-state approach of Charnoz et al. (2021), we use 2D time-dependent hydrodynamic simulations carried out with the FARGOCA code modified to take into account the magma ocean as a gas source. Near the Earth's Roche limit, where the proto-Moon likely formed, evaporated gases from the lunar magma ocean form a circum-Earth disk of volatiles, with less than 30% of material being re-accreted by the Moon. We find that the measured depletion of K and Na on the Moon can be achieved if the lunar magma-ocean had a surface temperature of about 1800-2000 K. After about 1000 years, a thermal boundary layer or a flotation crust forms a lid that inhibits volatile escape. Mapping the volatile velocity field reveals varying trends in the longitudes of volatile reaccretion on the Moon's surface: material is predominantly re-accreted on the trailing side when the Moon-Earth distance exceeds 3.5 Earth radii, suggesting a dichotomy in volatile abundances between the leading and trailing sides of the Moon. This dichotomy may provide insights on the tidal conditions of the early molten Earth. In conclusion, tidally-driven atmospheric escape effectively devolatilizes the Moon, matching the measured abundances of Na and K on timescales compatible with the formation of a thermal boundary layer or an anorthite flotation crust.

 

[whoknows]

The reason for the presence of long mountain ranges on the edges of the lunar seas from all directions and the abundance of impact craters outside the lunar seas and their scarcity inside the lunar seas is that these lunar seas are the result of the exposure of the near side of the moon. The collision of one body at the same time, which is the planet Earth, resulted in the existence of the lunar seas and the continents of the Earth. This collision also resulted in the existence of water and life on Earth. This is the scientific result that I have reached.

Re Harry Costas's question, have you looked to see if there is a correlation between the curvature of the Earth, and the diameters and impact depths of the lunar mares should there have been collision(s)?

 

[Adel]

You are assuming that the Earth and the Moon collided.

Where is the evidence?

Thank you Harry for your interest about the evidence that supports the scientific conclusion I have reached. I hope you will take a look at what I wrote yesterday entitled The Missing Nearside Crust of the Moon. I would like to know your opinion. About the evidence that proves the validity of the result I reached, although there is still more accurate and clear scientific evidence
Harry I can tell you with confidence, that this scientific result is important and deserves your attention and cooperation and all members of the forum. We work together as one team to bring out this scientific discovery. Which will reveal a number of the mysterious secrets of the moon and the earth, as it will be an answer and a scientific and geological explanation for a number of scientific questions that have no solutions about the moon.
Be confident of this.Harry
my regards
Adel Alabyadh

 

[Adel]

Re Harry Costas's question, have you looked to see if there is a correlation between the curvature of the Earth, and the diameters and impact depths of the lunar mares should there have been collision(s)?

thanks whoknows The scientific result that proves the occurrence of a collision is based on scientific and geological evidence and on scientific data that proves the existence of a geological relationship and connection between the near face of the moon and the continents of the Earth. This relationship is the result of the occurrence of a collision. Between the Earth and the Moon, it resulted in the Earth gaining a crust from the surface of the nearby Moon. This acquired crust is the reason for the existence of the lunar seas and the continents of the Earth. I hope you will take a look at what I wrote yesterday about this collision entitled: Missing crust from the near side of the moon

 

[Adel]

A collision occurred between the Earth and the Moon, but there was no collision between the Earth and another planet. This collision resulted in the existence of the lunar seas and the continents of the Earth, due to the Earth gaining crust from the surface of the nearby Moon. This crust was the reason for the existence of the lunar seas and the continents of the Earth. The lunar seas are considered the geological form of the ancient continents of the Earth, and the continents of the Earth are considered the geological form of the lunar seas. You can take a look at the scientific evidence that proves the validity of this result through the topic I published yesterday.

 

[Harry Costas]

The Earth and the Moon have similar properties.
This is not evidence of a collision.

It is evidence of similar evolution.

 

[Harry Costas]

Given that the Moon is about 5 billion years old, one may think that the evolution of both Earth and Moon occurred at the same time.
Also, the core crustal layer structure of both is evidence of similar evolution.

[Submitted on 22 Nov 2024]

The Moon-forming Impact as a Constraint for the Inner Solar System's Formation​

Tong Fang, Rongxi Bi, Hui Zhang, You Zhou, Christian Reinhardt, Hongping Deng

The solar system planets are benchmarks for the planet formation theory. Yet two paradigms coexist for the four terrestrial planets: the prolonged collisional growth among planetesimals lasting >100 million years (Myr) and the fast formation via planetesimals accreting pebbles within 10 Myr. Despite their dramatic difference, we can hardly tell which theory is more relevant to the true history of the terrestrial planets' formation. Here, we show that the Moon's origin puts stringent constraints on the pebble accretion scenario, rendering it less favourable. In the pebble accretion model, the one-off giant impact between proto-Earth and Theia rarely (probability < 1\textperthousand) occurs at the right timing and configuration for the Moon formation. Even if a potential impact happens by chance, giant impact simulations reveal perfect mixing between proto-Earth and Theia, leaving no room for the observed primordial Earth mantle heterogeneity and the compositional difference, though small, between Earth and the Moon. Thus, the Earth-Moon system along other terrestrial planets should preferably form from chaotic collisional growth in the inner solar system.

 

[Harry Costas]

If the Earth and another object collide to form the moon.
Their motions would be in a loop.
Over 5 billion years would have resulted in an END collision.

 

[Adel]

The Earth and the Moon have similar properties.
This is not evidence of a collision.

It is evidence of similar evolution.

There are scientific data and results that prove that a collision occurred between the Earth and the Moon. This collision resulted in the Earth gaining crust from the surface of the nearby Moon, which was the reason for the existence of the lunar seas and the Earth’s continents. For example, as you said, there is a similarity in the characteristics between the Earth and the Moon, and at the same time there is a difference in the characteristics between the continental crust and the oceanic crust. For example, the continental crust is older than the oceanic crust. Also, the thickness of the continental crust is greater than the thickness of the ocean floor crust, and the rate of increase in the thickness of the Earth's continental crust is close to the rate of decrease in the thickness of the crust of the near side of the moon. There is also a difference in the basic structure between the continental crust and the ocean crust. We can reach the conclusion that the continental crust is considered the place of similarity in properties with the moon and at the same time the place of difference in properties between the continental crust and the oceanic crust. This result will be a scientific and geological explanation for a number of unanswered scientific questions about the moon and the earth.The collision of the Earth and the Moon is the scientific and geological explanation for the existence of the lunar seas and the Earth’s continents. It is also the scientific and geological explanation for the difference in properties between the continental crust and the ocean crust. Also the reason for the similarity in properties between the crust of continents and the moon.The continents of the Earth are the missing crust of the near side of the Moon, a crust that is similar in its properties to the Moon and different in its properties from the crust of the ocean floor.

 

[Harry Costas]

Where is the evidence?
So far opinions and theories

 

[Harry Costas]

The aim is to keep looking

[Submitted on 13 Dec 2024]

On The Lunar Origin of Near-Earth Asteroid 2024 PT5​

Theodore Kareta, Oscar Fuentes-Muñoz, Nicholas Moskovitz, Davide Farnocchia, Benjamin N.L. Sharkey

The Near-Earth Asteroid (NEA) 2024 PT5 is on an Earth-like orbit which remained in Earth's immediate vicinity for several months at the end of 2024. PT5's orbit is challenging to populate with asteroids originating from the Main Belt and is more commonly associated with rocket bodies mistakenly identified as natural objects or with debris ejected from impacts on the Moon. We obtained visible and near-infrared reflectance spectra of PT5 with the Lowell Discovery Telescope and NASA Infrared Telescope Facility on 2024 August 16. The combined reflectance spectrum matches lunar samples but does not match any known asteroid types -- it is pyroxene-rich while asteroids of comparable spectral redness are olivine-rich. Moreover, the amount of solar radiation pressure observed on the PT5 trajectory is orders of magnitude lower than what would be expected for an artificial object. We therefore conclude that 2024 PT5 is ejecta from an impact on the Moon, thus making PT5 the second NEA suggested to be sourced from the surface of the Moon. While one object might be an outlier, two suggest that there is an underlying population to be characterized. Long-term predictions of the position of 2024 PT5 are challenging due to the slow Earth encounters characteristic of objects in these orbits. A population of near-Earth objects which are sourced by the Moon would be important to characterize for understanding how impacts work on our nearest neighbor and for identifying the source regions of asteroids and meteorites from this under-studied population of objects on very Earth-like orbits.