Enceladus - Could there be some form of life here?

[Catastrophe]

"Abstract A method has been developed by which the cell wall of Chlamydomonas reinhardi may be dissociated into its components, and then reassembled in vitro into a product that is chemically and structurally identical to the original cell wall."

FYI. This looks like an important concept here. This is not non-living matter evolving into a living cell. The experiment starts with already living matter.

It is an example of self assembly. See other examples also. Cat

 

[rod]

It is an example of self assembly. See other examples also. Cat

In my view, it is an example of destructing life and using a controlled lab environment here. Just flowing water alone in the test tubes can rearrange the assembly process.

 

[Catastrophe]

Further examples follow: The relevance is self assembly in cell wall formation.

J Cell Biol. 2008 Feb 25; 180(4): 651.
doi: 10.1083/jcb.1804rr4
Self-assembly of the cell wall
Richard Robinson

"Their results suggest that a positively charged protein network forms the frame to which negatively charged carbohydrates attach to make the mature wall."

. . . . . . . . .

"The protein's many lysines give it a strong positive charge—perfect for attracting cell wall sugars such as pectin. “Since pectins are strongly negatively charged,” Cannon says, “we propose that the network of the cell wall forms by extensin laying down a framework on which pectins can assemble.” The pectins and extensins bond through an acid–base reaction, and pectins themselves can also form linkages with each other."

******************************

 

[rod]

From a source I know. "When I took biochemistry at SDSU, my instructor (Dr Knowles) said biochem grad students would start their day getting a bucket of ice. During the day when any biomolecules were formed during their lab work they would immediately put them on ice to preserve them."

There needs to be transparency to the public concerning all abiogenesis experiments used to promote non-living matter will evolve into life. There are many traps used and other issues in all of this, just like the ice observed being used in some lab experiments.

 

[rod]

Further examples follow: The relevance is self assembly in cell wall formation.

J Cell Biol. 2008 Feb 25; 180(4): 651.
doi: 10.1083/jcb.1804rr4
Self-assembly of the cell wall
Richard Robinson

"Their results suggest that a positively charged protein network forms the frame to which negatively charged carbohydrates attach to make the mature wall."

. . . . . . . . .

"The protein's many lysines give it a strong positive charge—perfect for attracting cell wall sugars such as pectin. “Since pectins are strongly negatively charged,” Cannon says, “we propose that the network of the cell wall forms by extensin laying down a framework on which pectins can assemble.” The pectins and extensins bond through an acid–base reaction, and pectins themselves can also form linkages with each other."

******************************

What happened to flowing water in these experiments and does this change everything?

 

[Catastrophe]

What happened to flowing water in these experiments and does this change everything?

I am showing examples of self assembly and talking about how molecules can self assemble.
I am not taking published papers on the subject by qualified scientists and trying to pull them apart.

The watchers of this thread will decide what is relevance and what is destruction.
I have not noticed running water in still and stagnant ponds, but then I was not there several billion years ago.

There never was a good war, or a bad peace.

Cat

 

[rod]

So far, nothing in this thread shows what Darwin said in 1882 about evidence for abiogenesis taking place in nature (warm little pond), there was anything *of worth* demonstrated in his time to support the idea.

 

[rod]

I am showing examples of self assembly and talking about how molecules can self assemble.
I am not taking published papers on the subject by qualified scientists and trying to pull them apart.

The watchers of this thread will decide what is relevance and what is destruction.
I have not noticed running water in still and stagnant ponds, but then I was not there several billion years ago.

There never was a good war, or a bad peace.

Cat

I am applying the same standard of scientific verification to your claims that the geocentric teachers applied to the heliocentric solar system teachers. There must be *necessary demonstration* to show the Earth is moving around the Sun and we live in a heliocentric solar system. Galileo documented the Galilean moons moving around Jupiter and others could see this in nature too.

 

[Catastrophe]

Enceladus - Could there be some form of life here?

We are talking about the possibility of life now or in the future, which includes the mechanism of cell wall formation by self assembly. Nobody I have seen mention Darwin. I have not.

Cat

 

[rod]

Enceladus - Could there be some form of life here?

We are talking about the possibility of life now or in the future, which includes the mechanism of cell wall formation by self assembly. Nobody I have seen mention Darwin. I have not.

Cat

Charles Darwin is the source behind the abiogenesis movement in science today and his letters. Not observations based upon nature like Galileo presented concerning the Galilean moons at Jupiter.

 

[Catastrophe]

So far, nothing in this thread shows what Darwin said in 1882 about evidence for abiogenesis taking place in nature (warm little pond), there was anything *of worth* demonstrated in his time to support the idea.

We are talking about science today - not in Darwin's time. I doubt they knew about liquid crystalline structures then anyway. Perhaps you can advise us?

There never was a good war, or a bad peace.

Please can we keep the discussion rational and peaceable?

Cat

 

[rod]

We are talking about science today - not in Darwin's time. I doubt they knew about liquid crystalline structures then anyway. Perhaps you can advise us?

There never was a good war, or a bad peace.

Please can we keep the discussion rational and peaceable?

Cat

Using the Galileo example at Jupiter, come back with the necessary observations in nature showing abiogenesis turning non-living matter into life, otherwise it all goes back to Charles Darwin private letters as the foundation for abiogenesis in science today, just modified along the way, still lacking the observations from nature. What I said here is transparency to the public in my view.

 

[Catastrophe]

I am applying the same standard of scientific verification to your claims that the geocentric teachers applied to the heliocentric solar system teachers. There must be *necessary demonstration* to show the Earth is moving around the Sun and we live in a heliocentric solar system. Galileo documented the Galilean moons moving around Jupiter and others could see this in nature too.

my emphasis

I don't recall making any claims. To what are you referring please?

Cat

 

[Catastrophe]

I am sorry that we seemed to go off track somewhat. If anyone would like more references to self assembly with particular reference to Enceladus - Could there be some form of life here?,
the formation of simple life forms by self assembly or directly related matters I will do my best to oblige. I hope that we will all keep to the point and interact as best befits this forum. Thank you.

Cat

 

[KC Strom]

Quite interesting reports and articles. Thanks.

So, self-assembly at some level is viable. Makes sense.

Two (or three) questions:

First. Aside from living organisms, is there evidence of chemistry creating (lab or otherwise) each of the constituent parts of a cell? Not exact replicas necessarily, but close enough for discussion purposes? I know this is a big question with multiple complex answers. I'm trying to keep it simple and "directionally" accurate.

Second. RNA. How does it come to be in an Abiogenesis model? Have we ever replicated this process?

Third. Spark. We always seem to come back to this point (from the BBT on down). Even though we may have produced all of the elements, has anyone ever said "IT'S ALIVE"? I'm guessing not or we would not be having this discussion. Thoughts about what might be missing?

Undoubtedly I have asked the questions in a ill-informed and haphazard manner. I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Catastrophe]

Just thinking about the others, but . . . . . . . . .

" has anyone ever said 'IT'S ALIVE'?"

I am alive. That proves a lot to me. Whatever the arguments, "cognito, ergo sum".

Cat

 

[rod]

KC Strom in post #40 question, "First. Aside from living organisms, is there evidence of chemistry creating (lab or otherwise) each of the constituent parts of a cell? "

Good question. Here is a possible reference source talking about cells, https://askabiologist.asu.edu/cell-parts