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Newtonian,<br /><br />I wish you well in your quest. My worldview, for the record, is that of a Restoration Movement Christian. I do not view the Bible as teaching anything about what existed before creation other than God. My take on the universe as an admitted non-scientist is that time is creature of the physical universe. Hence my view that God created time.<br /><br />The language of Genesis supports this…”in the beginning” seems to me to be a reference to the beginning of time itself. But this is all semantics and in my view, we will not be able to ascertain that answer from inside creation.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>The Disenfranchised Curmudgeon</p><p>http://tonyplank.blogspot.com/ </p> </div>
<font color="orange">I think that the bible and science can be realated but some times there are things that we dont understand and things that we will never understand. Yes it is hard to believe. As for me, I do not think science is the work of the devil but a gift from God. I think science was one of the many things that was put on this Earth so that our minds can have something to think about, things to wonder and dream about because without these things we would be perfect and how can being perfect be fun. As for the creation in 6 days, yes I think it is true because after all he is God, and there are some things we will never ever know.</font>/safety_wrapper>
tplank - Thank you. I do have faith, btw.<br /><br />Restoration Movement Christian. Is that a religion - does it have a website? Just curious as I never heard of the group.<br /><br />God may have created time - or time may have always existed - I don't know. Certainly, Jehovah is the first cause (see my above post) scientifically speaking.<br /><br />There are other creations before this earth - note Job 38:7 - the context is concerning the creation of earth, e.g. Job is asked by Jehovah where he was when earth was created in verse 4. Then verse 7 reads:<br /><br />(Job 38:7) . . .When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?<br /><br />LXX (the Greek Septuagint Version) reads "angels" here.<br /><br />Clearly, there were other times and other creations before the earth, likely also before the heavens.<br /><br />For example concerning wisdom personified (Jesus):<br /><br />(Proverbs 8:22-23) 22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. . .<br /><br />"Time indefinite" hear translates the Hebrew word "ohlam" which literally means "hidden or concealed time." Forever is one definition since the end of forever is hidden - in fact, does not exist. However, any period of time whose end or beginning are unknown also applies to "ohlam," including when God created his firstborn or onlybegotten son, the beginning of the creation by God. (See Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14).<br /><br />Interestingly, Genesis 1:1 can also read "In a beginning" rather than the traditional "In the beginning." <br /><br />There is no indefinite article in either Hebrew or Greek corresponding to the English "a."<br /><br />"A" is often supplied when the definite article in Hebrew or Greek is absent, and the definite article in Hebrew is absent before "beginning" in Genesis 1:1, hence it can be prope
YANKS1419 - Hi! Good post.<br /><br />Yes, I also love science and the many wonders of creation.<br /><br />Of course, God could have created the earth in 6 days. That is your choice what to believe.<br /><br />However, as I posted above, the Bible does not say that and both astronomy and geology do not support that view.<br /><br />Perfect can be fun. In the Bible perfect is defined as complete and in context applies to perfectly fulfilling the purpose for which it or he (etc.) was created.<br /><br />To illustrate: <br /><br />A perfect toaster will not give you good reception of the Science channel.<br /><br />A perfect televison will not make very good toast!<br /><br />When man is brought back to perfection, we will still never know it all.<br /><br />As wise King Solomon noted:<br /><br />(Ecclesiastes 3:10-13) 10 I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of mankind in which to be occupied. 11 Everything he has made pretty in its time. Even time indefinite he has put in their heart, that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish. 12 I have come to know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during one’s life; 13 and also that every man should eat and indeed drink and see good for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.<br /><br />Yes, I agree science, while it is hard work, is a gift of God and we will never know everything from the start to the finish.<br /><br />We will have the joy of scientific discovery forever!<br /><br />Think of all the planets awaiting to be discovered!<br /><br />We will learn forever!
I have just read all the posts in this topic and as I see it the big question is what is a day. My opinion after many years of studying and listening to many opinions is. The bible tells the story of creation in terms that could be understood by the common folks of the day. It was passed along mouth to mouth for centurys before Moses put the first five books to print. If God had said I created the heavens and all that is in it in 6 billion years surely it would have been told in a number that could be understood in those days, Six billion just might have been shortened to say one thousand years which would be more likely to be a number that could be understood. As to how long it actually took, who knows? Science today tells us that a phenomenon called inflation caused the universe to grow to enormous size in an instant. 6-8 billion light years in an instant? How would you explain that knowing that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light? We could argue about that one for a while also. I think I know how it is possible for this to happen without breaking any laws. Just suppose that inflation took place at the speed of light? We all know today that at the speed of light time doesen't pass. Or just could be this happened before time was created. The length of a day pales in compareson to some of the questions that could be ask.<br />I believe in the concept of the Bible. I believe that there is a God who created everything. How he did it is a good exercise in thinking but no matter what theory is advanced it will be his secret untill he reveales it to us. Some things our minds can't imagine. Take for instance a "Spirit", thought and existence without substance. Mull that over for a while.
God may have made the Heavens and Earth in 6 unequal periods of time, which are not quite correctly called days. There is far more evidence for an Earth billions of years old than for evolution, black holes and several other widely accepted ideas in science. When and if we ever have both correct religion and correct science we will see that they agree on most of the details. Neil
Neil - Remember, Genesis 1:1 is before the 6 creative days.<br /><br />BTW, here is our official position on the age of the heavens and earth:<br /><br />"The Scriptures, in stating, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Ge 1:1), leave matters indefinite as to time. This use of the term “beginning” is therefore unassailable, regardless of the age scientists may seek to attach to the earthly globe and to the various planets and other heavenly bodies. The actual time of creation of the material heavens and earth may have been billions of years ago." - "Insight on the Scriptures," 1988, Volume 1, p. 527.
Bobalue - Good post. <br /><br />One point I would like to clarify:<br /><br />Moses was inspired by holy spirit to write or compile Genesis - it was not mere oral tradition.<br /><br />There are varying theories on details, such as the colophon theory.<br /><br />That theory proposes that Moses compiled Genesis from previous written documents.<br /><br />We no longer accept that theory. Would you like me to post details on what has been discovered concerning this? <br /><br />A few tidbits:<br /><br />A colophon would be the closing of an ancient document, identifying the author and usually a one sentence summary of the documents contents.<br /><br />A few potential colophons would be:<br /><br />Genesis 2:4; 6:9; 10:1; 11:10, 27; 25:12, 19; 36:1, 9; 37:2.
Bobalue, you said "Just suppose that inflation took place at the speed of light? We all know today that at the speed of light time doesen't pass." I know that all things in the universe pass through space-time at the speed of light, so if you pass through the 3 spatial dimensions at the speed of light then time doesn't pass, as you mentioned. But I thought that nothing with mass could travel the speed of light (photons are massless and can travel the speed of light). If anything with mass is accelerated toward the speed of light then as it approaches the speed of light, it requires more and more energy to be accelerated further toward the speed of light. To actually reach the speed of light would require an infinite amount of energy, meaning nothing with mass can be accelerated to the speed of light. But the early universe had mass, so how could inflation have occured at the speed of light?
Newtonian,<br /><br />There is no Restoration Movement organization. By defnition, it is unaffiliated independent congregations that seek to practice their faith as did the first century Church. You have heard no doubt of various "Church of Christ" and "Christian Church" congregations...these are flavors of the Restoration movement. I would imagine Wikipedia would give additional information. Also you could look up important restoration movement figures such as Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>The Disenfranchised Curmudgeon</p><p>http://tonyplank.blogspot.com/ </p> </div>
I know not. I am so far below Steven Hawkings that it is imposible for me to imagine the things he imagines. I only quote what I think the brains that think and discuss things like this write. I have no idea how much energy God put in to the big bang. It could have been infinite. This discussion includes all train of thoughts. I think about these things and I read but don't pretend to create new ideas. I only hope someone will come up with something I haven't read or thought of. I need new thoughts.
tplank - See my profile. <br /><br />It is interesting that you seek to follow the first century church teachings.<br /><br />My faith, Jehovah's Witnesses (www.watchtower.org) has been called "primitive Christians" because we also strive to live in harmony with first century Christian teaching, rejecting the many man-made traditions that crept in during the centuries that followed.<br /><br />I will check out those names. Note no names are at our site - we strive to avoid adoration by men but to be humble.
dougum3882 and bobalue - good astronomy tangent. <br /><br />Actually, I think FTL inflation is explained by FTL expansion of the fabric of space while motion ON (in) the fabric of space has the speed of light as a limit.<br /><br />In other words, the fabric of space can expand FTL, but matter and energy (possibly with the exception of dark energy) cannot exceed the speed of light on said fabric.<br /><br />I.e. motion of the fabric of space has no known speed limit and can exceed the speed of ligth. However, motion on the fabric of space has the speed of light as a speed limit.
You said: "Moses was inspired by holy spirit to write or compile Genesis - it was not mere oral tradition."<br />Not to dispute you but do you thinjk that the fact that Moses was raised by an Egyptian Princeses and had access to all Egyptian librarys had anything to do with his thinking? The Egyptian story of creation was almost identical to the Bible. It is just a question as I wasn't there. I think maybe the story of creation passed along from when it was first revealed might just be universal if it was passed along early enough in man's development.<br />
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The Egyptian story of creation was almost identical to the Bible.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Which one? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Actually, Egyptian cosmology is rather interesting, especially because of how synchretic the ancient Egyptians were. I don't think there's a parallel to the story of Hathor creating the Nile in the Bible, for instance. And I think the most comparable thing to the story of Noah would be the story of Sekmet, the Eye of Ra, coming to purge the world with fire. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em> -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>
Bobalue - Please note I post what I believe usually in my own words(I use quotes sometimes). <br /><br />You do not have to agree with me - this is a very varied forum with many beliefs represented.<br /><br />Concerning what Calli just responded to, I join her in asking what Egyptian creation account you are referring to.<br /><br />I am not aware of it, and I am not ignorant in the field - though I stilll have much to learn - I'm all ears so to speak.<br /><br />There are a number of creation accounts from Egypt, and you are correct that Moses likely knew of them. <br /><br />However, note how different these accounts are - far from identical:<br /><br />"Egyptian creation myths likewise involve the activities of several gods, but they disagree as to which city’s god (that of Memphis or that of Thebes) was the one who conceived the creation. One Egyptian myth relates that the sun-god Ra created mankind from his tears." - our Bible dictionary.<br /><br />"One discovery made in Egyptian tombs allows us to compare the Bible explanation of the origin of man with the creation account contained in an ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead, one of which can be seen in a long glass case in the Louvre Museum, Paris. Writing in the authoritative Supplément au Dictionnaire de la Bible, Louis Speleers, curator of the Cinquantenaire Museum in Brussels, Belgium, explains: “The Book of the Dead relates that one day [the sun-god] Ra left his divine Eye shining in heaven. Shu and Tefnut brought him back his Eye, which began to cry, and men appeared from Ra’s tears.”<br /><br />Another archaeological discovery that makes possible an interesting comparison with the Bible account is a series of seven clay tablets containing the Enuma elish, or Sumerian-Babylonian “Epic of Creation.” According to this ancient record, Marduk, city-god of Babylon, vanquished the primeval sea goddess Tiamat and cut her in two. “From one half he fashioned the vault of the heavens, from the other the solid earth. That done,
<br />For an omniscient and omnipotent being, why did it take any time at all?<br /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>
Ok you have me on that one. That was something I read 25-30 years ago in a book about the writting of the Bible. I must admit that that book or my memory of it is all I have to substantiate my statment.<br /><br />As to why God took so long to create everything? I don't recall ever reading anything that might answer that one. I can't even take an intelligent guess as to why it didn't happen in an instant.
If we look at the account of creation in Genesis as a story of faith (ie. that God is ultimately responsible for the creation of the universe regardless of how it happened), and not as a historical record, or a science lesson, then, I don't see science and faith in conflict at all. The creation account is meant to give a lesson in faith, not a lesson in science or history.