Gravity and Magnetism the same?

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Mars_Unit

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R L Forward was a big shot at Hughes in Malibu California.

He wrote many Sci Fi books.

What I am saying is that Nucleons of Atoms might just turn on and generate more gravity, when accelerated beyond 10% of celeritas.

It seems that accelerating Electrons causes Magnetic fields. Inside every electromagnet, the electrons whirl around in a solenoid and create a amplified magnetic field.

I believe if we accelerate Electrons in a certain path, they might generate Electrogravitation.

The electrons have a tiny mass and that would be amplified in a coil.

White Dwarf matter is unstable on Earth and would degenerate into normal matter.
 
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ramparts

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Mars_Unit":3be1zt12 said:
R L Forward was a big shot at Hughes in Malibu California.

He wrote many Sci Fi books.

What I am saying is that Nucleons of Atoms might just turn on and generate more gravity, when accelerated beyond 10% of celeritas.
By celeritas you mean the speed of light, yes? No one uses that term for that concept. Ever. I had to wiki it just to see what you meant. Call it what it is - c ;)

It seems that accelerating Electrons causes Magnetic fields. Inside every electromagnet, the electrons whirl around in a solenoid and create a amplified magnetic field.

I believe if we accelerate Electrons in a certain path, they might generate Electrogravitation.

The electrons have a tiny mass and that would be amplified in a coil.

White Dwarf matter is unstable on Earth and would degenerate into normal matter.
You're throwing around a lot of very funny ideas and I'm not sure where you're getting them from. This Robert Forward seems to have been a fine scientist, but I recommend you not get your most far-fetched ideas in physics from an aerospace engineer who wrote science fiction ;) I'm not sure how to respond to most of that post (there was quite a bit of misused jargon), but I would recommend you read up a bit on white dwarfs. "White dwarf matter" is just ultra-dense "normal matter" - usually carbon, oxygen, and so on.
 
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dangineer

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Actually, white dwarf matter is considered degenerate normal matter. White dwarf matter doesn't "degenerate" into normal matter, in a sense it goes the other way.

Burkhard Heim proposed a theory that predicted photons would turn into gavitophotons under a high strength magnetic field. Other than that there is no current theory that suggests such a direct connection between gravity and magnetism.
 
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lanceromega

Guest
bowman316":2hlvxrv4 said:
You ever think if gravity and magnetism are the same force?
Every object of large mass out in space has gravity, which just pulls other objects closer to it. But if both objects are nearly the same size, they tend to orbit. which can be viewed as 2 of the same poles rejecting each other. They don't want to get too close to each other.

I know these 2 forces are similar, but maybe they are more similar than we think?

Imagine the sun being a N pole, and so are we. Or maybe we are attracted, but jupiter is holding up back in a tug of war, and jupiter is the same pole as the sun, but we are opposite poles from both.

Well Bowman that is the Grand quest of Theorical physicists to combine the two forces. Certain Grand unitification theories would have Gravity and the Electromagnetic force being different aspects of the same force, they only act different due to the breaking of certain Symmetries.

An example of this, is the Weak and electromagnetic force. In reality they are the same force, but due to the breaking of Symmetry due to the Higgs field we see the 4 bosons or particles of force as carriers of two different forces. Only at high energies ( 10 to 16 GEV) the two aspect of the Weak-electromagnetic fields are joined. The same is hope for Gravity that as we approach higher energies that Gravity and the Electromagnetic forces can also be unified.

Another approach is by adding an addition Dimension. Shortly after Pulishing his Theory of General Relativity, Einstein recieved a letter from a young Physicist by the name of Theodor Franz Eduard Kaluza showing that Gravity and the Electromagnetic force could be unitied using the addition of an extra dimension. In 1926, Oskar Klein applied Kaluza's Theory to quantum theory, and this became the foundation of attempt of string theory to use extra Dimensions to achieve the unification of All the forces of nature.
 
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Mars_Unit

Guest
dangineer":1vtr4noh said:
Actually, white dwarf matter is considered degenerate normal matter. White dwarf matter doesn't "degenerate" into normal matter, in a sense it goes the other way.

Burkhard Heim proposed a theory that predicted photons would turn into gavitophotons under a high strength magnetic field. Other than that there is no current theory that suggests such a direct connection between gravity and magnetism.
I was taught that there are many different forms of degenerate matter.

One is when you cryogenically freeze something like a rubber ball, the ball will lose it's ability to stretch or bounce. In fact the rubber ball will become fragile and tear and even disintegrate into powder!

White Dwarf Matter is superdense or compressed and missing some electron shell from what I recall.

It is not normal matter like Neutron Star Matter or Pulsar Matter. (Same Thing).

I was told it changes into either normal matter or decays because it is unstable outside of it's environment element.

I have never heard of "gavitophotons" or graviphotons with an r in it.

Dr Ning Li of The University of Louisiana has a working theory that a magnetic rotating superconducting disk can make and even interfere with Gravity!

Her theory predated Plodkletnov's experiment. She has not been able to duplicate his results, but he admits to keeping secrets from all the scientists.

I am sorry, if I piss you off.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... 81736.html
 
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dangineer

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I don't think you're making anyone angry. :)

Anyway, neutron star matter is actually more 'degenerate' than white dwarf matter. At least that's how the theory goes. White dwarf matter, or at least white dwarf core matter, is similar to regular matter except that it is compressed so far that it pushes the electrons out of the way and all the nuclei gather towards the center of the star and the electrons are left swarming around them. This is also called electron degenerate matter.

In a neutron star, the process continues. The matter is further compressed until it becomes energetically favorable for the protons to capture the surrounding electrons to form neutrons (this is a very simplified description of electron capture).

I suppose the term "degenerate matter" is somewhat vague and depends on the context, though.
 
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drwayne

Guest
Degenerate matter may take somewhat different forims, but the main principle that is
common is the force that causes the matter to not become more dense, the Pauli
exlusion principle.

At least that is the way I learned it.

Wayne
 
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dangineer

Guest
I believe degenerate matter is also matter that has lost it's job and is now living on the streets. This sort of degenerate matter tends to condense in alleyways and under bridges. Perhaps we can collect this stuff and use it to generate artifical gravity.
 
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Mars_Unit

Guest
LOL! There is also Sexual Degenerate Matter as well. They tend to have orgies and use hard drugs.

Much of our 21st Century Schizoid Man desire to have Gravity Control or Antigravity comes from Tesla's work with electromagnets.

Paramagnetism is about a billion times weaker than Ferromagnetism.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/amer ... =171633978
 
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lanceromega

Guest
Mars_Unit":21jyu4xi said:
dangineer":21jyu4xi said:
Actually, white dwarf matter is considered degenerate normal matter. White dwarf matter doesn't "degenerate" into normal matter, in a sense it goes the other way.

Burkhard Heim proposed a theory that predicted photons would turn into gavitophotons under a high strength magnetic field. Other than that there is no current theory that suggests such a direct connection between gravity and magnetism.
I was taught that there are many different forms of degenerate matter.

One is when you cryogenically freeze something like a rubber ball, the ball will lose it's ability to stretch or bounce. In fact the rubber ball will become fragile and tear and even disintegrate into powder!

White Dwarf Matter is superdense or compressed and missing some electron shell from what I recall.

It is not normal matter like Neutron Star Matter or Pulsar Matter. (Same Thing).

I was told it changes into either normal matter or decays because it is unstable outside of it's environment element.

I have never heard of "gavitophotons" or graviphotons with an r in it.

of The University of Louisiana has a working theory that a magnetic rotating superconducting disk can make and even interfere with Gravity!

Her theory predated Plodkletnov's experiment. She has not been able to duplicate his results, but he admits to keeping secrets from all the scientists.

I am sorry, if I piss you off.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... 81736.html
More recent experiments actually came out of work done on the superconducting Gyro that was design for Gravity B probe. In this case they notice a slight increase of gravity:

Scientists funded by the European Space Agency have measured the gravitational equivalent of a magnetic field for the first time in a laboratory. Under certain special conditions the effect is much larger than expected from general relativity and could help physicists to make a significant step towards the long-sought-after quantum theory of gravity.

Just as a moving electrical charge creates a magnetic field, so a moving mass generates a gravitomagnetic field. According to Einstein's Theory of General Relativity, the effect is virtually negligible. However, Martin Tajmar, ARC Seibersdorf Research GmbH, Austria; Clovis de Matos, ESA-HQ, Paris; and colleagues have measured the effect in a laboratory.

Their experiment involves a ring of superconducting material rotating up to 6 500 times a minute. Superconductors are special materials that lose all electrical resistance at a certain temperature. Spinning superconductors produce a weak magnetic field, the so-called London moment. The new experiment tests a conjecture by Tajmar and de Matos that explains the difference between high-precision mass measurements of Cooper-pairs (the current carriers in superconductors) and their prediction via quantum theory. They have discovered that this anomaly could be explained by the appearance of a gravitomagnetic field in the spinning superconductor (This effect has been named the Gravitomagnetic London Moment by analogy with its magnetic counterpart).

Small acceleration sensors placed at different locations close to the spinning superconductor, which has to be accelerated for the effect to be noticeable, recorded an acceleration field outside the superconductor that appears to be produced by gravitomagnetism. "This experiment is the gravitational analogue of Faraday's electromagnetic induction experiment in 1831.

It demonstrates that a superconductive gyroscope is capable of generating a powerful gravitomagnetic field, and is therefore the gravitational counterpart of the magnetic coil. Depending on further confirmation, this effect could form the basis for a new technological domain, which would have numerous applications in space and other high-tech sectors" says de Matos. Although just 100 millionths of the acceleration due to the Earth's gravitational field, the measured field is a surprising one hundred million trillion times larger than Einstein's General Relativity predicts. Initially, the researchers were reluctant to believe their own results.

"We ran more than 250 experiments, improved the facility over 3 years and discussed the validity of the results for 8 months before making this announcement. Now we are confident about the measurement," says Tajmar, who performed the experiments and hopes that other physicists will conduct their own versions of the experiment in order to verify the findings and rule out a facility induced effect.

In parallel to the experimental evaluation of their conjecture, Tajmar and de Matos also looked for a more refined theoretical model of the Gravitomagnetic London Moment. They took their inspiration from superconductivity. The electromagnetic properties of superconductors are explained in quantum theory by assuming that force-carrying particles, known as photons, gain mass. By allowing force-carrying gravitational particles, known as the gravitons, to become heavier, they found that the unexpectedly large gravitomagnetic force could be modelled.

"If confirmed, this would be a major breakthrough," says Tajmar, "it opens up a new means of investigating general relativity and it consequences in the quantum world."

The results were presented at a one-day conference at ESA's European Space and Technology Research Centre (ESTEC), in the Netherlands, 21 March 2006.

While not truely a gravity to magnetic transformation this may explain effect of Plodkletnov's experiment
 
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dangineer

Guest
I can see how degenerate matter getting high off of excessive gravitons and interacting with several partners simultaneously can produce interesting gravitational effects... perhaps degenerate matter is the key to gravity control.
 
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Mars_Unit

Guest
LOL! I think the magazine Fantasy and Science Fiction had a story in the 70's that had some kind of Dean Drive that worked by sexual intercourse! The drive f****d itself forward thru Space and Time LOL!

I never heard of Tajmar before. Thanks for that info! Maybe what we read and write here will turn into something Boeing and Lockheed might develop. I know they have been working on such fantasies. That is where ideas come from, dreams and fantasies.
 
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emperor_of_localgroup

Guest
lanceromega":2do56bez said:
Mars_Unit":2do56bez said:
dangineer":2do56bez said:
so a moving mass generates a gravitomagnetic field.
Can anyone shine more light on this sentence, I'm not a GR expert.
A mass already has a gravitational field, then does it mean more gravitational fields are added when the mass moves?

I read the paper a couple of years back where they created gravity by rotating superconductors in lab. Einstein's theory may be right but his calculation may be wrong.

I came to a similar conclusion as the above quote when I tried to understand cause of inertia. I'm surprised inertia or inertial frame do not bother anyone here. ha ha .
 
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ramparts

Guest
You can read up on it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitomagnetism

My GR take-home final had us derive the "gravitomagnetic" equations - they're analogues of the Maxwell equations for electromagnetism that you can derive from Einstein's GR equations. In the same way that a moving distribution of electricity (like moving a wire) creates a magnetic field, moving objects through spacetime creates a "fictitious force" which obeys these equations that looks like Maxwell's for E&M. It's a complicated subject but rather interesting - when applied to rotating bodies, the gravitomagnetic effects are referred to as "frame-dragging", and along with gravitational radiation are one of the more famous predictions of GR yet to be tested. The Gravity Probe B looked for evidence of this frame-dragging around the Earth, and I believe the data are still being examined at Stanford.
 
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Mars_Unit

Guest
Arthur Charles Clarke wrote in "Profiles Of The Future" in the early 1960's that if we ever develop Gravity Control and Anti Gravity that can be controlled at the flip of a switch, it will come from experiments conducted at National Laboratories by Particle Physicists.

In the end, all of out best Human efforts regarding this subject will probably come from some extremely clever 17 year old Jewish nerd at Bronx High School Of Science who will demonstrate a working solenoid that uses ordinary 120 Volt AC housecurrent. He will flip a switch and it will generate real Gravitation and or Antigravity and win a Nobel Prize.

I might be able to make such a device if I had insulated room temperature Superconducting Peroskvite wire that was solid core and flexible. No such wire can be bought and making that kind of wire would cost a fortune. Dont look for it at Radio Shack!

Gravity and Magnetism are not the same. Both are attractive forces, but Gravity can bend space and time. Black Holes might be able to suck in Time itself! Forward said two counter rotating Black Holes could generate sausage shaped areas between them that could alter time. Gravity might be able to punch holes into other timelines or other dimensions as well.

Gravity holds Solar Systems together and magnetism holds rocks and icebergs and asteroids and comets together.

When we wind a wire into a solenoid coil, the magnetic field is amplified. We want to amplify Gravitation and we are learning how to do it. If we wind a wire into a coil like a torus or bicycle tube shape, the gravity at the center is not amplified, but canceled! Any Gravity amplification would happen outside of the torus. That was Forward's idea. Dr David Dearborn pointed out gravity cancels out in the center.
 
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dangineer

Guest
I'm not sure why people are saying that wire coils amplify magetic fields. Amplifying a magnetic fiels implies that there was already a field present and then it's made stronger. Wire coils generate magnetic fields, they do not amplify them. If you do not pass current through the wire, there is no magnetic field. Once current goes through the coils, a magnetic field is generated. Just thought I'd clear that up.
 
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Mars_Unit

Guest
Insulated wire has electrons in it. With no electricity added to it, it only has an intrinsic field. When we pass electricity thru it, which seems a Superfluid like energy, the strong moving current generates a non intrinsic, electro magnet field.

If we make a long wire into a solenoid like the master magnet, it amplifies the magnetic field.

A straight wire strung along any distance will generate a magnetic field, but it will be weak.

A simple solenoid can act like a tank for electricity. A simple solenoid like in a Foxhole Radio is just a LC tank circuit.
 
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dangineer

Guest
"Insulated wire has electrons in it. With no electricity added to it, it only has an intrinsic field. When we pass electricity thru it, which seems a Superfluid like energy, the strong moving current generates a non intrinsic, electro magnet field."

This description seems inaccurate. A wire (insulated or not) left alone produces no field, as there is no moving charges and the material is essentially neutral. When an electric field is applied to the wire (i.e. a voltage difference between the ends), a magnetic field is produced (because now the electrons are moving).

"If we make a long wire into a solenoid like the master magnet, it amplifies the magnetic field.

A straight wire strung along any distance will generate a magnetic field, but it will be weak."

I see what you are saying here now. A straight wire produces a magnetic field around it (when an electric field is applied) but when you coil the wire very closely, the magnetic fields of each turn add due to the superposition principle, thus generating a stronger magnetic field than the straight wire by itself. That is true.

The way this statement was worded in the past (I've seen it in a couple other threads as well), made it sound as if the coils amplified an already existing field.

If anyone was curious, the magnetic field generated by a coil is directly proportional to the number of turns. Thus, the more turns you add, the stronger the magnet given a certain current.
 
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Mars_Unit

Guest
Dr Martin Tajmar says the Gravity Generation is not coming from the Superconductor as he used to believe. He now says it is the Liquid Helium generating the Gravity Induction.

I have located my former college professor at the University of Arizona where I studied Astrophysics for a semester.

He is a big shot now at Lawrence Livermore Labs and I have just asked him to recall me and my designs for a Liquid Superfluid Helium Filled Vessel I used to call a "Gravistator".

I also told several NASA scientists about my ideas and some still work there. I have just contacted them and asked them to pen a small testimonial as to what I was attempting to build. I was trying to make an Gravity Control Device!

I wonder if Tajmar will get a Nobel Prize? I did the early theoretical work with Dr R L Forward's help. Using Superfluid Helium to Generate artificial Gravity was my idea. I now think it can be done with electricity. I need insulated Superconducting wires that work at room temperature. Bell Labs might have some. I do excellent work winding coils.

About my screen name. My first name means "One who is of Mars", so I chose Mars Unit.

dangineer,

I will not nit pick with you, over how many Angels, can dance on the head of a pin.

I was taught that everything that exists on this Earth is held together by magnetic fields.

That is why a charged comb can attract bits of paper or Polystyrene foam.
 
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darkmatter4brains

Guest
why do you just say magnetic fields? Seems to imply electric fields play no part. Electromagnetic fields maybe?

Also, I've heard this many times too, but it seems like the strong force is not getting the credit it deserves here. Sure the EM fields hold together everything around us, but without the help of the strong force holding together the nucleus it would all be for naught.
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
And without gravity, the atoms of earth would be spread all across the Universe :)
 
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darkmatter4brains

Guest
good point :)

okay, so gravity, EM and strong forces are good.

But what about that darn weak force! Does it do anything for us other than cause stuff to decay!
 
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Mars_Unit

Guest
When I speak or write about magnetic force, I usually mean magnetism from a permanent magnet.

When I talk of Electro Magnetic fields, I usually speak of magnetism from an electromagnet using DC or AC current.

When I talk of electromagnetic waves, I speak of Photons of Light which are packets of energy with no real point particle like an electron.

As I said before, there are three types of magnetism. One is Ferromagnetism which works with Iron and similar metals.

There is a similar force called Paramagnetism which was first described by Pierre Curie colleague Paul Langevin which attracts non ferrous metals like copper and nickel. He also discovered Diamagnetism which repels certain metals like Aluminum.

These two newer forms of magnetism are like a billion times weaker than Ferromagnetism, from what I am told.

I was told electric fields are magnetic fields. Everything electromagnetism is made of charge.

There are said to be four or five basic forces of nature. 1 is Electromagnetism. 2 is Weak Nuclear Force which was reunited with Electromagnetism in a recent Electroweak theory, but using high energy from what I understand.
Weak Interaction is responsible for radioactive decay.

3 Strong Force holds Atoms nucleus together. 4 Gravity still seems to remain the odd man out in the Unified Field Theory that Albert Einstein wrote.

The jury is still out on the so called Fifth Force aka Magravitation and a bunch of other names.

All of the atoms that make up the Earth may have very well been spread across the 26 Billion Light Year Universe we can see with the Hubble Space Telescope. Gravity made Earth happen, as it were.
 
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darkmatter4brains

Guest
Mars_Unit":2rzzvky9 said:
I was told electric fields are magnetic fields. Everything electromagnetism is made of charge.

.
I always found it fascinating that an electric field as viewed in one frame, could it appear as a magnetic field to a different observer in another frame. Seems like a real good reason to think of them both as two sides of the same phenomenon - an electromagnetic field. Perhaps this is part of what you're referring to above.

The physics turn out the same for both observers, i.e. they predict the same forces, accelerations, etc. They just differ in their interpretations of the fields. More relativity at work really.
 
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MeteorWayne

Guest
Well, really, not really. Electromagnetism does effect relativistic interpretations a bit, but most of it has to do with mass, acceleration, and velocity.
 
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